The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 10 months ago

Finding Your Voice as a Woman in Sales

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

It’s no secret that being a woman in sales can be a challenge. In what has typically been a male-dominated profession, it can be tough to not only find your voice as a woman, but also to set yourself up for progression in your career.

But remember: Ginger Rogers did everything that Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in heels.

On this episode of Sales Engagement, we gathered some of the best and brightest minds in the industry, from all different backgrounds and walks of life, to have a robust discussion all about finding your voice as a woman in sales.

Some of the topics we covered in this live discussion were:

  • Finding your voice as a woman in sales
  • How to position yourself to move into your next role
  • How to recognize the potential in everyone
  • How all of us can be the change that we want to see in our organization

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast. This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, and they just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach well does outreach? Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as they do. Head to outreach Doo on outreach to see what they have going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Welcome back everyone, to another sales hacker live event. So today we are talking about how to find your voice as a woman in sales, how to position yourself to move up and to win the next role, and not only that, but talking with leaders about how they can recognize the potential and everyone and how all of us can be the change that we want to see in our organization. So this is absolutely a conversation from everyone for everyone, but you're not going to be hearing it from me. We have a phenomenal group with us here today and I'm going to turn it over to none other than Jen Ferguson, who will give us a bit of an introduction, frame up the conversation and then open the floor to the other panelists to give to introduce themselves as well. So, Jen I'll turn it over to you. Thank you, Sam. I really appreciate me you and a sale packer for having me. I'm a community leader for sale packer, but additionally I'm a champion for women and sales. I'm a global sales on boarding program manager over at sales forurce, but really this is something I'm passionate about. How to elevate women, how to really embrace your voice and get to that next level and sales, but also sort of level the playing field. You know a lot of people, companies, hiring managers, will look at men for their potential and when they look at women sometimes they don't necessarily see that potential but mostly look at the experience. And so how do we get away from that? How do we beat the change that we want to see in the world so that generations, for now, my daughter, you know, doesn't experience the same bias that I have throughout my career. So this would be a great conversation. I am so excited have a fantastic all of ladies joining me. So let's go around and I think we have joys first, on my screen anyway. That's your how it looks. Everybody else, but joys. He'll see as alow. there. I am Joy Johnson, a time author, speaker, cells Champyond business coach and founder why sales network. And you know I'm would Jim. I'm very passionate about this. I have twenty five US plus of corporate cells experience. I've sold on behalf of some of the largest companies in the world to some of the largest companies in the world and I think a lot of time through that journey my voice has been a little silent, a little quiet. So I'm happy to be a part of this panel and baby, to share my journey and hopes to change some minds out here and baby change some of the experiences that women coming up now Kuld have a little bit easier and be recognized for their potentire and their power. That's awesome. Thank you so much, Joyce. Catherine O Hey, thank you all for having me here. My name is Catherine rubles. I'm out of Canada, so I'm in Toronto and I'm originally from Columbia. So I'm a women Latin women in sales. So have gone through a couple of ups and downs in that front but, you know, always confident of what I was ringing on to the table. Hots brought me to where I am, which is why my biggest commitment to other women out there is just impowering them to find their voice. How we chose today's topic, really comes to me is finding her voice in following it. So that's pretty much where I focus my energy on impiring other women to feel comfortable having conversations and driving for their goals and their plans to be successful. Thank you so much and I love that that. That's amazing. Hannah. Hey, so I'm hard to Checoa. I'm based in the UK in Essex. I am I've got a wealth of experience in sales. I played every role from bed are up into management. I spend most of my time chasing my son around the house. He's a four year old at very energetic little boy, and when I have some spare time I work very diligently with startups and scale ups all around their world, helping them with their sales process and and the sales mythodology. This, this discussion is pretty important to me. I've hadn't I guess? I've had a wealth of experience littered with very some very peculiar situations throughout my career. I'm head of...

...your physicis in sales, which is something I'm extremely passionate about. So really helping to increase the visibility of women of color in sales, that's black women, that's Latin Xwomen, that's Asian women, and also working with them to increase their confidence to take advantage of all of the opportunities that are out there, but we're still not quite taking them. So I'm really, really excited about this discussion. Hopefully I can share some some wise words, but I'm looking more forward to learning from the rest of everybody else on the panel. Thank you. And that's that's an interesting perspective, like are we not taking the opportunities? That's, you know, something to part for a second, like when you own your voice to you then move on and bring everything you have to the table and go after that next level. We're all as opposed to you know, stay with the status quill. So that's amazing. Thank you. Actually amazing, Ashley. I know anyone else do those activities in school where, like on the first day of Class I was have to pick an adjective that's the same first letter as your name. I was always stuck on amazing. I could never think of anything better than that and I always hated it. But so flashback there. But, as I thinks of, my name is Ashley early. I am ahead of sales at duckbill group, which is a company that helps you get out of get lower your insanely crazy aws bills. But more relevant to the discussion here today, I am the CEEO and Co founder of the other side of sales, which is a podcast, blog and research group focused on Making v Tob sales truly inclusive so everyone can thrive. We've been around for just over two years now and basically we are founded because my cofounder, Casey Jones, was no longer with us. She's moved on to bigger and better things, but she and I were honestly looking for podcast to listen to about sales to up our sales game, and we were like, why are there no podcast by women? Other than conversations with women in sales, which is amazing and U should all go subscribe to. And for the first time my career I had the thought process of well, no one else is doing it, why not me? And for one of the first times of my career I was able to shut up that negative committee in my head and go oh, I can do this, and so it's been an incredible journey. We just launched our second annual sales sensus. We're going to drop a link in the comments. This is a university back to research study that we're doing in combination with Oregon State University, Organ State University, Washington State University, University of Wyoming and Auburn University to actually get real data around with the experience of being in sales is like, as well as the state of diversity and inclusion in sale. So I'm not just like how white or nonwhite of sales, how male or non male are we in sales, but also what is the presence of microaggressions and was the impact that that has on quota in sales? It's ten to fifteen minutes. It is incredibly powerful research. Please, please, please, take the study, share with your coworkers with your network. This is a really important opportunity, beyond the conversation today, to keep the stuff going and to keep this conversations rooted in data. So very, very cool stuff. It does take ten fifteen minutes, but it's that's because it's really important stuff. And obviously other side of Salescom for everything, podcast and blog and I drafted the chat and so did saletacker. So it is there like three times and I can't tell you. You know, after seeing last year study and getting a feel for just where we were and where the opportunities were for improvement. You know, anything that's data back where you're actually taking a pulse of what is actually happening out there in the industry, I think it's super powerful. You know, because even though, like I share a lot of stories right about some of my experiences, I've also been in sales for twenty years. So something that happened to me a decade ago wouldn't necessarily happen to me now. Something that happened to me twenty years ago when necessarily happen to me now, and so that experience for women in sales has evolved over time for the good, for the better. Right. There's been lots of improvement. There areas for opportunities for improvement as well, but you know, you can't just focus on where their opportunities are without stopping for a moment and taking in and cheering for the progress they think. That's absolutely that progress and what you're saying with that you'd that opportunity that you took to create a podcast right and sort of embracing your voice in your power is a good way to segue into our opening question here of when was that like Aha moments of when you fully realize your potential in sales? You know, I I posted something on Linkedin today. That was a video of from UNTAINS, which is the Cheatah story, and I don't know if everyone's read on Tams, but the beginning of the book is amazing in the regard that it like it makes you consider where you are and how how...

...you felt. I mean it brought me to tears and I'll put the link in here because I did crab it, but it's you know, we're going to go around to everyone and share it, like when was that moment where you felt like you realized your full potential, or what the breakthrough moment where you can see, this is this is my my journey and this is where I'm going to own it and this is my path and this is what I'm capable of. That let's ever with you. Enjoy. I don't know if I've gotten mar yet. I mean I was a rare up today we watching that CHAINA store. Are Like yes, because I'm much EATA. I think it's took me to a whole another level just in that moment and so thanks for you know, share and you know, yeah, I have to say sometimes I think doing as a young woman when I probably took my first role in leadership and I had at the time of very supportive leader and I had moved from one company under my maiden name to another company under my married name. And when I went into meet those same customers the following week, they're like, oh my God, we're so glad as you we were wondering if it was you. And I realized how they I had really gained those cust that customer trust in their business and they just, you know, said, you know, we haven't had anyone really gotten themselves embedded our business the way that you have as a seller and that customer in itself became very kind of protective of the Joyce Johnson brand right with my corporate company, and I think there's just been different times who are my voice have leveled up. You know, I think when I in two thousand and Nineten June, two thousand and nineteen, when I was having an uncomfortable and what I you know, I say say the word unfair. Tell my niece is all time and nothing's fair. But you know, but I felt as an unfair, unjust just a crazy conversation and I said, you know, well, why don't you offer me a package and let's see what that's like? And I think in that moment I made an unbeling for myself. I made a powerful decision for my life and for the lives of my nieces and the young women in my family, two young women that I mentor coach. That you know, because when I coach women sometimes I've told them once you check all the boxes and you've done everything to someone asked you to do and they still say that is not enough, then I need you to walk away and do something else, because you just that damn good. So on that day I took my own advice and I walked away so I think that, you know, if I had to pit to one day that, then you know, hey, that summer two thousand and nineteen was probably it. That's an amazing story and you know, and I got quite a few number of those moments, but I'm going to let the panel go first thing. We do already have a question and you know, let's just thank you for sharing. Pacard. What about you? How about a breakthrough moment for you? I think it was just building up. Seems I was very little. So I've always been the trouble maker because I would always be questioning everything. I would not be the one to follow their rules, where your uniform a certain way, your skirt has to be these height. Not because I was a rebel, but I didn't really see at the end of the day, you know, I twy to those rules, with those to why to those rules, with those standards? So, yeah, I was always labeled that troubled maker and I've always been up until now being that person that, why do you have to challenge the other person? Can't you see there's a senior in front of you? Your thoughts, your ideas are not there. However, Funny Enough, of my dad has always encouraged me to be that way. Right, find your voice, Catherine, stand up for yourself with respect and with the right tone and the right attitude. It'll work God. So I've always been, you know, encouraged to speak up and share my truth throughout my entire career. That has a that's has been the way that I've always had my conversations. And more recently, when I joined one of the biggest consultative consultancy firms in the world and I got there, everyone was like, you're talking here to these leaders and the senior people like these are national industry leaders. Everyone wants to talk to them and you're joking around with them or you're talking to them that way. Are you really being that personable? And then when I left, they were all very appreciative of that, and that's when it clicked. It's all about that human interaction. I've always obviously been like, okay, humans sells. Is for humans. Right, sells. He's human. You got to connect with your audience, but still we are always forced into following a certain process or following certain standards. When I was able to valid dates with all these folks that everyone looks up to, that my personality was the one helping me stand out from the crowd it and was the one really empowering me to...

...the get to the next level. Then that was my Ahamana, like I'm actually on track, because I had a lot of step backs. Right, every time that you have a manager that says you were off your this and even though you would get the feedback from some customers sometimes, and clients and like okay, we miss you did, you did a great job, but if your manager is constantly pushing you down or asking you to tone it down. And then I got the validation that I needed, right, like yeah, that the world needs a lot more voices. That's where that diversity of thought comes into play as well, and it's about knowing how to use it right. You can now just come and disrupt everything, but knowing how to use your tone and your voice. That's, for me, kind of my validation of sales and, you know, the power of women really everywhere they want to be, anywhere they want to be. That's amazing. I think that's a wonderful story and very much resonate with me. You know, the idea that people keep up pushing me down and tell you what you can do or what that's not going to work and bring it back to that human to human interaction and the value that you as a woman. I think not enough people embrace this idea that you, as a woman, have your own unique skill sets and unique way of just being able to be successful in sales because of what you bring to the table, not in spite of it, but because of it. You know, there are studies out there that you know, women make quote and more often then men and they accelery deals more often than men in a lot of ways. That, then, men aren't great, but there's some unique talent that when bring to the table, it should be celebrated and embrace. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, thank you. It's really becauty to hear Katherine speak because I'm like it were, as a kids, I was like the ultimate goody two shoes that I was that kid where, like the teacher would send me a letter at the end of the year saying thank you for helping me manage the classroom at like sixteen, but you know, you being in the classroom really helps. Like that's a shouldn't really have been happening. So I was amazing goody two shoes. I always have been. Literally nothing's changed. So I found it really I struggled when I first got into the the corporate sales environment in a really big corporate company to be told and I'm you're really aggressive and half to work with, and I'm like, well, I literally have. I never had a fight in my life. I billy have arguments. It was really hard to have a line manager like that and it really kind of it confused me a lot. So it was interesting when that line manager transitioned out of the business and I had a new manager and he kind of looked around the room after like two days of sitting in a background and said, you look like you know what's going on here. Let's have a chat and we went for like a you know, we went for a coffee and he was like tell me what's going on. You know, what do you do? Well, what's not working? Now you've had a manager that's been missing for a while and we had a good chat and I was like, well, someone's listening to me and not kind of telling me that me in my own skin is not is not good enough, without really getting to know me. So that was I had an our home, our harmonent and the kind of ore. This is making sense to me. When that manager transitioned into the business and, you know, the team started doing well, I started doing extremely well. I came out of my I came out with myself, I came out to my team as well. I took I was a bit shy to tell everyone. I'm gazed. I told the one person who had a big mouth, just hoping he tell everyone in by by the next day in the office are like, Oh my God, hell, Oh my God, and I was like finally, these hills were killing me. This is this whole fake identity thing. What was I thinking? But like the moment I became comfortable with myself, right, I just did better. So, just like owning myself, owning my own identity, I became much more comfortable. I did better. And I remember the thing that really clicks for me and really understanding. Okay, I've got something here. Was One of the the kind of cells director, the national sales director, came and said, you know, you've got you know you've done really well. Why do you think that is? And I think you've got some special when you know, won a couple of awards and stuff, and I was like, Hmm, I just kind of just kept my head Downe and got on with my job, but she, that person, alongside my life manager, made me realize the concept of having internal stock value. It's something that I never really understood. So it was like knowing like you're worth internally and without being both. For he's like you need to kind of network, you need to talk to people, you need to let people know. Yeah, you know, I work on this projects. I'm doing that because at the point where you're seeking internal promotions, nobody knows who you are. Like there's a score board the three hundred sales people. Who Are you? Like, all right, you know get the top end of it, but what does that mean? So that was one point for me and the next point was really having a baby, right, and being like I literally create a human I can do anything. I'm sorry, guys is, there's nothing you can tell me anymore. Right. So it was it got to the point for me where it was okay, there's lots of like external stock value things to me. So I think a bit like what Catherine saying. You go to a client and they're like, we chose you because of you. To be honest, know the other sales guys from the other companies came in and they they just slated you guys, and I...

...was like like, I knew how they sold, so I select it right. I let them do their thing and it's like you guys are honest. You were thirty percent more, but we can trust you. So it was just like okay. So you get that into that internal radiation, external one, and you kind of become a bit like you build this confidence to be like okay, I know where to go. But I guess the challenge where that I had is is really and I'm guessing we're going to touch on this later, is having that coach, having somebody to direct you from there. So I've now established my worth and I don't really know what to do with it right. So it's so important, once you do get to that stage where you feel like you know what, I'm getting a bit confident now, to to kind of seek out those coaches and mentors and and lean even outside of your business and joint communities like cells, I could joint communities like rep genius, joint communities like sisters in sales, where there are so many people that are literally willing to help you, often for free, which even better to help you kind of elevate yourself. So that's kind of my our har moment regarding my career so far. I love that, and some are here put in the chat in and where we create our own people. We're Badasses, which is entirely true, you know. So thank you for sharing that. A lot of that resonated with me as well. So it's it's amazing that, you know, we all have this shared experience and we're all closer than we think, you know, and being able to support each other, and I think that's where you were leading with the coaching and we'll get into that in a minute and then we got to have a question. But actually we would love to hear. What is your breakthrough moment for you? I think mine came like the first of all. My first reactors question was which one, because I feel like this something they have to happen about every eighteen months. I need that reminder because we started hit that's the ailing. Then you have the breakthrough and then you're good. You're good for a while and then he hit it again and I trant to show the most, not my most reasonable, the one previous, which was about a three week period and started December. Nineteen, two thousand and nineteen, when I was laid off for the fourth time in three years, and ended about a month later when I founded Ashley early LLC Consulting. And what happened during that period was basically me being so frustrated and fed up with at the moment when I was perceiving to be companies kind of chew me up, using me for my skills and spitting me out when they no longer needed me or when I had trained someone to do my job for cheaper or they thought they could outsource it that way. And I hit this moment of basically F I'm sick of doing things your way. I'm going to do it my way. And I didn't know what my way was. I did not know how to be a consultant. I had spent years telling people that I thought consultants were over priced sales people who were on the good at selling themselves. I said I never wanted to run my own company that was doing which work into with responsibility, that the pay was too inconsistent. And Two thousand and twenty was the year of doing everything I swore I would never do and actually finding out I really enjoyed it so I think the breakthrough for me was the moment I stopped playing by their rules and said and stopped defining myself by their success. In eighteen months I went from being a kind of seniorsdr manager, a trainer, to now head of sales at a company WHO's hiring people with, you know, ten to twenty years more experience than I do and owning that intelligence and all the work that I've put in, instead of talking down at we noid I'm not ready for this. No, I'm ready and we're doing stuff and I'm really excited about it. But it only started when I said screw your rule book, I'm writing my own and I stopped caring about what people said. I started I wasn't afraid to say I think that maternity leave policy in the US is criminal. I stopped being afraid to say that company should provide pay time off to work. I stopped being afraid of saying that in a lot of cases cold calling still works and probably should. And just stating these things made it very clear who I was what I stood for, and clients found me, versus the constantly having to go out and ingratiate myself to people who I'm just never going to win over anyway. So leaning into myself and what I know to be true actually made my life a lot easier, not just mentally but in my sales practice, in my business, and it's been an incredible ride and it's been a lot of fun and it's been absolutely terrifying at the same time. But it would never have been there if I hadn't basically thrown out the rule book a year and a half ago. And part of that also means I achieve one of my lifelong dreams, which is I literally moved to Europe in the middle of a pandemic, which was totally smart and I highly do not recommend for anyone. That was insane. But that was only possible literally because I took the jump and started my own business and then, after I had done that, found out there was this incredible views of program specifically for the Netherlands. So it's it's interesting what happens when you are able to break out of them mentality of Oh, I got off all the rules of the boys. Now you don't doctor, probably shouldn't know, you shouldn't and I...

...love that and it resonated me. I I was laid actor in the pandemic to right and I decided to be intentional about my brand. I decided to say whatever I felt and whatever I thought and to just be that champion for women in sales and share some of these stories of my experience, and it's led me two places that I didn't think I was gonna go, you know. And if I hadn't done that, and I I don't just let go of the idea that if people saw it on Linkedin, that it was going to rule me out of that particular role, I had to embrace the idea that I don't care like if it if I write something that happens to me and how it impacted me and it takes me out of the running for role, then that role wasn't for me in the first place and I shouldn't care. I shouldn't care and I'm only to be miserable if I go after rolls that they pause and they look at me and they say no because of my voice. So that really resonated with me and we have a question here, so I want to take a second answer this question before we get into that next area. So how can you tell if your company has sexist hiring practices? I'm the only woman on the sales team and they just keep hiring men. Just wondering if you had encountered this. I of course, have an answer, but I'm going to throw it up to the panel first in case anyone else would like to feel this one first. I asked someone not seeing this on the panel. Okay, there's that. That's part one. All the first every to know something. That is an excellent point and it's I mean it's hard to recognize when you're in the company and you realize you see all these men coming on board right and you realize that you know, even if they have one woman applicants, if they're only up, but if they're only interviewing one woman and a bunch of men, the odds of hiring that woman are significantly lower. There's a study. I don't have a link to it but I will totally find it for sales packer, but I'll gave everyone out an opportunity to share. I think. I think the big horse in a lot of times because I found myself, I actually have a certificate and diversity inclusion from Cornel University, and I found myself working with a leader with a Billion Dollar Chech company right, doing all of the pandemic and you know, the Jeyche Floyd things and that nature. And he said, Joyce, I don't think that has been intentional. where I haven't hired other people. Is Just said, these are the people that call me, these are the people in my network who asked for help, who asked me to help their family members, who ask me to help their kids. And he said, now that I know you know, basically you saying to know better is to do better. Right, and so I think that's why we have to use our voices in some cases to bring these things up, because obviously there is a problem surrounding you if you're the only one there that looks like you. Right. And but is it intenfol and I think that's what you know, where you may want to go to find out, and by just using your voice, having some conversations around it and then also volunteering, raising your hand to say, would you like me to find some candidates for you to help them out, because otherwise I'll probably stay the same. I think you're that clint point. You're touching any very imp and point joys, and it's that network, the the power of the network of amplifying voice, which is why I love Gen's initiative of the month, which is amplify her right, and it's all about it. If you're a man, a male, and you're surrounded by males and you post it, well, those are the ones that are going to apply to it. So that's where I always think it's not necessarily on the employer's fault that they don't have a more diverse team. It's also where they move, how they you know, how they're working out is this has been a huge conversation recently, is those job postings. What do they need to have in order to get women to apply to them? We know that we are very sensitive in terms of are we checking on all the boxes, are we not? And at the end of the day we usually would say all figure out if I really want it, if I get it, I'll figure out and we will figure out. But we still struggle from really coming into terms with that, you know, like we still want to check as many boxes we want, and I've seen in many recent postings something really great, which is, even if you don't fit all these criteria, we want to hear from you if you really want to make a change and boom, that change is immediately how their message is being received. So yeah, we like, for example, in my case. In my case, I came to Vanillasoft a year ago and when I joined there were only three women in the cells to out of eleven team members. And although women were...

...like how we're so excited that you're here, finally women here, and now my team needs primarily women, and it's not because we were focused on it, it just happened to be, but it's because of the way that we have presented ourselves out there. Usually as well, we tend to believe like, okay, there's a women leading the team. There's definitely someone they're standing up for me. So it's also getting meant to be more verbal under commitment to change and their commitment on seeing success across the team, regardless of how you look, how you talk, what you like and what you don't like. At the and of the day, think it also comes back to when hiring managers go to interview these applicants, that they need to consider the value someone different groups to the table. You know, there's this idea out there in Chech culture fit, whether they are a good fit for the company, and sometimes that ends up getting defined as the person you most like to have a peer with, and the value of culture ad is significant, and I'll give you an example. I'll give you a sales hacker example. Right. So, sales hacker acknowledge me. Last year for women in sales mouth, which I love, they sent me a beautiful Blue Tshirt and I love the t shirt. On the back of the t shirt, though, there was, you know, a chart. It was like an Arrow up into the right and it said up into the right and up into the right. To me, as a forty year old woman coming from retail, meant someone was lying because in my management training throughout my career, up into the left, I mean it was up into the right and sorry, was lying. And so I was like, what does this mean? Saletacker, like with my friends, we had a debate. What does it mean? What does it mean? And of course, if you looked it up and you looked it up with sat up into the RAM's growth, everybody knows that. People are like, what do you mean? But I'd been in Sass for like since stath started. I have sold software for a long time. I don't know that phrase. I know to me it means something different and having that diversity of thoughts is so important when you're starting to look at your sales picture approached everything. But if I many I'll have yeah, yeah, I because, if anything, it's a real subtlety. But it's the difference between culture ad and culture add, as in someone who adds to the culture that I already exists, versus culture add in terms of someone who brings something different, a different perspective, a different way of doing things, a different way of working, a different experience with clientele. Culture ads should mean bringing something new, not repeating what already is present. In general, it doesn't mean you don't reinforce things. I mean never has to be completely different, but our clients are different, are buyers are different. Your sales team needs to reflect the diversity of perspective that is present in the world. And yes, I understand a lot of buyers have the same diversity issues that we do. But that's the thing. We can lead by example. The more sales can find this diversity of thought and show this works, because we're one of the more data driven teams. We have more Inter action with more companies than anybody else. The quicker we can diversify the Mora will impact every other industry that we touch. But it's all about that Celtic between culture as a reinforcer and culture add as a differentiator and as bringing something new to the table. I think it's also worth noting to if you are on a team and you think there may be the sexiest hiring practices, that's a really tough spot to be and I think as an individual, because you don't set hiring practice, you don't want to stick your neck out if you're not from the with the concept of a tall daisy, the ideas basically the tallest days the first one to get cut. So there's nervous doors aren't being the tall daisy. I get all that, but one of the best things you can do is just very directly ask questions and state what you're seeing, without putting language on it or anything. So it was something as simple as I think at the two jobs in my life where I was asked to legal questions in the interview and to two to two separate instances I was hired by a company after someone in the interview had asked me if I was planning to have children twice. But I chose to work at those companies knowing that. Okay, I know that they were not supposed to ask that. No, I did not call it out in the interview, but one of my first stops after being hires walking over to HR and saying hey, by the way, so and so ask me this question in the interview. I know you know that's illegal. We should make sure we're training so this doesn't happen. I get in every case training happened. It didn't happen again. So it's picking the battles and context matters. In each case I was very word of the individual. was trying to be nice. Knowledge is power, Yada, Yada, Yada. But I decided I could make more change from the inside than from callinging it out in the moment.

So it's understanding what your lovers look like, but just stating what happened. It wasn't going up and saying hi, so and so did something illegal. It was hey, this thing happened. Just thought you should be aware of it. Something as simple as that. Or even if you're not comfortable going to your boss, hrs there to protect the company, you can use this to your advantage by going hey, I noticed this weird thing that they're interviewing mostly men. Just wanted to flag it. You don't have a case or nothing you can do. But now hi is going to go take a look at that hiring process and get resources in place to amplify because now it's been alerted, they're going to want to protect the company from any sort of discrimination lawsuit. So it's a tricky situation. I don't envy it and I think I speak for hopefully everyone in the panel. Not necessarily, but if you're in the situation and if we can help and need to spare brain ideas, gut check on this. There's a difference between hiring and internal culture. So I would hope, based on the question, your internal culture is positive. But in my experience generally, if the hiring culture isn't necessarily healthy, than the intol culture isn't necessarily healthy either. So make sure, also checking in my Ami, in a safe place and if you're not, the hiring market is hot for sale, poble right now. There's no reason to stay in a place where you are not safe and taking care of so hundred percent. Go and find someplace where they see you, they hear you, they empower you, they value you hundred percent. So thank you for those thought that. Like we had a question that was thrown in the chat that says I just joined. My issue is I'm the only woman, and Black Woman, on my sales team, where I fell software in the area of construction. I go to conferences incy barely anyone who looks like me. has there been any scenarios mentioned in the call like this? We haven't talked about it yet. I don't know if there's anyone who wants to take the first yeah, I think I got you on it. To get hand. I'm just going to say like that. That's literally be. That was, as always been, my situation in and to add to the fact that I'm also gaining a very much, you know, be masking presenting when I am in informal, environmental corporate environments, I'm like that's who I am, get over it, and I'm a shave off my hairs added to it was even more fun. But so you being these environments, and one of the things I've always said is so I was talking briefly about stock value. When you know your Shi t and you know the value that you can offer to organizations, you are not in the matter what environment you're in. You can stand tall simply because, like you, that's your superpower. Now, because they can't relate to you because in most of these cases, and you know, these these older white men, all these older white women, are these non black individuals. They're not like you. So that there's a really sometimes this barrier that you may feel. Sometimes they don't feel it, but you may feel it, like all I've now I'm almost give myself a bit of a complex here, but that's your superpower, because they don't know what to expect and then you deliver a greatness and they're blown away. So I'm always like, it's a superpower that we don't often we're not often, we don't often have the confidence that tapp into. But I learned very quickly, very often when I'd sit and what's selling some really boring software. Wow's boring. However, I was always in the room selling data and it almost always be white men in their faulties and I've come in and, you know, be like all sort, we don't have an hour. We actually got twenty minutes now, and then it would be like, you know, within fifteen minutes they're like, oh, yeah, it's going to count to my next meeting. My Oh yeah, you thought I was just going to come here and not be good. Right. That's kind of my in my back of my head. So tap into your superpower, which is the fact that you they are expecting something different and you're going to deliver something even better. So don't like. I appreciate it's tough. It really is tough and not everybody can that. Maybe has the personality or it's that that'say in natural space. But I promise you, there's this assumption where it's like who, I'm not sure about you, because I can't relate to you. You look so different to me. You probably have different lived experiences, but then you bring something that exceeds their expectation and you've won them over. And in those environments where you're in a conference, you're looking around my oh my gosh, it's okay. It's okay that I don't migrate to the people that just look like us, Burricay, why? Just be yourself and do what you're dead to do, which is to deliver your value proposition, to show the body that you can bring to an organization, to make connections, to network and surprise people. You will be so like amazing surprise. So I hope that kind of perspective helps a little bit. I'll that Joyce share has because she's got a welcome experience to yeah, you know, I've sold in that all in gas segment for many, many years and so definitely showed up and being the only one, definitely been all the one in conferences and things like that. And you know, the mad part of you know, my brands just not creating a diverse moment but also creating the inclusion. And when we're in those areas, I think, you know, like a Hannahs A, find a way to connect with individuals, because we all have more in common than we don't and we have to find ways to connect that commonality. You know, I sell the time. We want inclusion Monday through Friday and sometimes on Saturday and then Sunday we all goach our own individual churches and where no one looks like you know, I...

...call it segregated Sunday. Right. So we have to find a way to build that inclusion and take advantage of the places that we are in and build those relationships because if we will build, if we build those relationships and we expand those doors push them open for ourselves, then it gives us the empowers as and gives us opportunity to be able to bring someone else to those doors who greatly need to be there and deserve to be there. So find a way to it's okay, right. I've gone a small towns where, you know, even when I went to McDonald's, are fast food or K Kree or in event, the whole tail, no one looks like me. Right, but I found a way to connect with those individuals and have conversations with them that when I went back into those small towns they remember who I was and and greeted me. So I think we have two in that. It will we're in that space. Think what can we do to build a more inclusive network for ourselves and for those individuals that are there with us? Can I get expand them what Joyce? Joyce said there, if you don't mind it for a second, and there's she really makes a massive point about inclusion. And I was at an event a few years ago, and I think it was at the time. It's about three years ago. It was the head of by busity and inclusion at twitter, incredible lady, incredible presenter, and she said, you know that men stand up and that women stand up. It's like a game. We're looking around, like what's going on here, and she just like she's like I cut, there's a massive differences here, and we're like yeah, I'm a man of the woman whatever. And then it was like, okay, people who have daughters stand up and it was like, Oh, okay, you can see, look how many of us have similarities here. So you started to just realize that we are very similar. We have so many more similarities than we do differences, but we often forget that. So, as Joyce was saying, just finding those kind of mutual paths to conversation is so much easier. You know, you know it's they're drinking coffee, you like the same coffee. Brilliant. There you go connection. We don't have to make it so complicated. And then you're just a human and that kind of that energy stop to that kind of met with down compared to how you felt before. So I just wanted to expend on Joyce. It's really really valid point, with an example as well, and I believe these are sex to that confidence. Sorry, Jen, but I wanted to wrap it up. It's sold part of that confidence right. What you are worth in my case, my accent has always been a big thing, and I I know that for Lattin people that's one big thing, because we usually get tagged. You might choose not be clear, you might not be able to be successful in sales or any other thing right and how you're able to connect at the end of the day, deliver and make yourself worth front and center, rather than waiting for them to keep on judging you by however you look or sound at that given time. Amazing. Thank you. So we're a little bit behind on time here with everything we still have yet to cover. So let's just go into a positioning for that next level role and I will take whoever wants to start with those in type. I could totally get you, guys. Just don't happen there all at once. I was ready for you, guys, because I you know, I being a business owner. I'm not really positioning for a next roleboat I can share with you when I'm coaching people is to be a tinful to make sure you let everyone know what your goals are, what your plans are, make sure you're align yourself with the right mentors and possibly a sponsor if you can, for where it is you want to go, but don't let the conversation should of where you want to go be the first take place the first time, doing one of your annual reviews. Right you should be talking to your leadership and you know and the people that are on the other side of that role where you want to go the entire year and even longer, in building relationships and maybe raising your hand to tag along and follow them on tasks or things that they're doing so that you can become more knowledgeable of what that role is. So don't wait to the last minute. If you know what it is you want to do, you know, put some things into your your folder. That's a I need to do X Y Z in order to prepare for this role. And as you do X Y Z, go back and put that in your folder. Your employee phones that I've checked off on this, I've checked off on that, what have you. But make sure that you just, like I said, communicate, communicate, communicate what it is your goals are, make sure everyone understands where you want to go and make sure you're aligning yourself with the people that can help you get there. That it's totally true. And then I would add, you know make sure that you're building out your personal board of Directors and networking and making sure that you're getting sponsorship internally, but also spending that time with your leader to understand what that never next level looks like. How do you get there? What are the steps you need to accomplish, like making sure that everyone on one you're using that opportunity to find out how you get to that next level. A lot...

...of it is like communication and finding out what they're thinking, and this, like leading with being curious, is super valuable in this. I didn't know if anyone else you know. I'll say one other thing, Jen that I asked of my last leader because I felt that she was not executed well on this, and so, during a call with her one day, I say, what are you saying about me when I'm not in the room, because I think it's very important to be you know your leader is going to be in front of the other leaders and the people of the artizations where you want to go. So I think it's very unique to understand what's your leaders elevator of you and what your leader is saying about you when you're not in the room. How would they positioning you and you want to provide them some coaching on that and say because if there's a gap of some information or skill set or training that you have party going to the company. You know, sometimes we change leader so much the new leader just don't know and they don't know what they don't know. So ask your leader, you know, what do you say about me when I'm not in the room, and then help them build on that so you can make sure they say the things that you need them to say to ensure your future success. That is amazing and I think that was the might drop moment. That's Michelle states that what do you say when I'm not in the room? That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. I did anyone know? We have some more questions that are coming up, so we could either, you know, with about eleven minutes left, we can either take the questions or we can do this next question that we've got on the agenda. I think we should take the questions from the audience. I think we should also. Yes, yeah, okay, so just sell ask how do you how do additional accreditations help help you like PMP and sales? I think you know, I'll let someone take that. Additional credentials and whether there's that any value in them and how had leverage that I can take that. It really depends on what sort of sales you want to do. So I'll give you an example. I'm currently going for my claddic for a ats cloud certification, the lowest level one. I'm doing that so I can talk to my prospects better, so I can understand, I can literally speak their language. As I continue in the space, I'll probably go up at other couple levels, not because I'm going to do anything with it, but simply so I can talk to my costomers. PMP. I'm assuming that's project management. I think it is. I could see that being really helpful in the sense of if you're dealing with a space, it realizes very heavily on that or alternatively, honest, and this is I think the bigger question is. I think anything that helps you think better, more critically, more creatively, or anything helps you better ones in your prospect will always help your career and it can be a little bit of an edge when it comes to a hiring process. So, as a woman in sales, Ginger Rogers did everything that Fred started backwards and and heels couple extraccreditations don't hurt. That said, I don't think it's something I would ever incur someone to go into debt for, leave a job for or anything like that. But if you have the opportunity to get something, I don't think it ever hurts and it can occasionally be the deal breaker. But more than anything, I think it's more about helping your mindset, helping your skill set and helping you better communicate with those process because, everyone else said, we have more alike, we are more like than dislike. So the more can expose yourself to different areas, it'll just help you be a better connector and a better communicator. Hundred percent agree, and I would add you know, I'm a mentor for Girls Club and there's a lot of value in growth club with the content that they offer, not only for like just the confidence building, but like how to coach on calls and how to Lee going through that process, having a mentor, having not only access to a female mentor but also mail mentors so that you can get those perspectives, because even though I could give you my feedback right your sales leader, if the male sales leader may have a different perspective, entirely right. So the more perspectives you can get on any given scenario, the better off you are. And I highly recommend that the the Girls Club program just because there's so much value there and especially with that networking and building up that personal board of directors. So we've got another question here for Megan. Any kids suggestion as a female sales manager with male sales reps for me? For me, you know, I I pulled the Mary K on them and they didn't even know. Right, I broke them up in teams. I give them a theme song. We played a music coming in, you know, but also, you know, just really, just really, I've had my guys read books quarterly, right, and I selected books...

...that I thought that would help them not only professionally but personally, you know, like books on conflict management, books on, you know, building themselves as men, but also, you know, helping them understand their role, as you know, as leaders in the organization and, you know, in this funny because sometimes they're wise, would end up reading, you know, these books as well, and I think they always enjoy the books on conflict management at things because it shows them how to relate to women and everyone else and it's showing them how to relate to you. And then an addition. Hey, I just have always gotten the my club memberships where I can take the winner of the cells month golfing and we go and I work, I hang out with them for the first nine holes and then we go to the nineteen and I leave them there. And so but, but I think, you know, just like women or anyone else, they want to be great leaders, they want to be understood and they want to you know, and have that connection and help and that help to move along in their careers. I do really think as much different, other than when we traveled I would put them in different hotel because I was like, I don't need to know everything. I just think it's fun dealing with them. perious NARRA, true story. And I would add like it's discovery, right, just like you do a discovery on a prospect, you do discovery on your team members. Right. What could you do better? What is their perception of your leadership? What can you do to support them? And understanding that, you know, there's that surface level, like just I can discovery. There's the surface level, the stuff that they're going to tell you right up front and that you need to dig deeper because you need to get to the heart of the matter. I think of it as like the skin, the bone, the heart. Get to the heart of the matter and they're not going to do that by just saying hey, how you do it right? You literally have to build relationships. Yeah, and men are more willing to tell you exactly what they want, exactly where they want to go, exactly what they want their next role to be and why they think they should do it. They I mean they take think a lot of time. They take the guests and game out of it. I mean there's been a few times and I say you know, what motivates you, and they say money, and I'm like, okay, well, what's you going to do with the money? Right, because the wife want in car, you need to buy a house. You know, that's the true motivator. But for the most case I've found in something that we can work on more zoom, and I probably learned that from the men in my life and all my team's, that you want something, you better ask forty but to go or because they're going to go for it. Embrace your journey, own your path. You want something, to go after it. That's excellent excellence point. So I can I ask the quick question here for the panel because I it's one thing on the thing that I found really interesting in my own career is when I know where I want to go, I don't typically have a hard, significantly hard time getting there because I've learned over my career to ask for help and do all things you as we're talking about. How have you guys handled it? How? How have you ladies? Sorry, you've carked my language, inclusive language. How have you? How have you ladies handled it when you don't know what next step you want to take next, when you're when you're debating between management and I see when you're trying to figure out if you want to stay in a closing roller, move over to see us or maybe Rev ops? How do you when you how do you plan for the next step when you don't know what the next stuff is? I do just the next best thing right. So there was a point in my career where do I want to be a leader or my looking for something different, and I was very fortunate to get a scholarship to a VP of sales program where I determined I did not want to be a VP of sales like did not ever, and that was great. But not everyone has that opportunity and I've got a certain man of privilege because I had that opportunity. Great. So I think figuring out what you're passionate about, what energizes you like even in your job role. What are the parts could you like and what are the parts you don't like, and and starting to Chart Your path of what you enjoy to find out where you should be. You know, sales in such a big category. Like I'm in sales enablement. There are so many different pathways in sales now. There sales coaches, sales enablements, there's leadership, there's you know, I love the part where I would get into doors. I could be in FTR tomorrow and how like enjoy it. I just you know, there's a perception there which sucks, but so through to the reality. Yeah, I think you let's stop focusing on titles and focus on what we want to accomplish. And then once you decide what it is you want to accomplish, if that's leading people indirectly, if that's leadership influence without authority, if that's only your own quota, your own path, or, you know, leading others to make their quota. Be Very clear, just right, about the things that you have experience, that you really love and where you feel, and be honest with yourself, like a I told people in two thousand and seventeen, I...

...sat down I asked myself, you know, what is it that I have to talk of the world and what is the world need for me? You know, I think don't be afraid to document what you want outside of work to I find going right, I find going that way a lot easier and starting with what I want from work and going out, I start with lifestyle in the reverse engineer back end of my work. There's a lot easier for me. Yeah, there's life, the life selfing definitely was. I remember, I think I was. I was about twenty three, hundred twenty four when I came into it is not my sex, a proper selves job. After leaving a big corporate I went to slightly smaller corporate and after the interview, got through this the second stage and and I actually then got them to present to me and they were like what the hell, but I was like listen, like you know me and my little suit and you didn't even fit properly, but I was like hey, I like I need to get to I think I asked twenty guys. I need to earn a hundred K by this day, like, and this is I understand this role. I need to understand how, what roles and what I need to achieve in the next few years to get there. And they were like, you ain't going to get that here. However, we can get you so far. So they always knew after two years, if I exceeded my target, I was going to be looking. So I was like congratulating and supported when I was transitioning out of the business after two and a half years, because they knew that they couldn't support me with that. However, they gave me so much skills and what I needed in that space. They were like are you've got a niche, you really good at this kind of selling. Do More of that. And I was like this is great, but we do need to be braver, just like actually says, look outside of what we need to do, take it internally and say, okay, how does that, how does this company help me reach my goals? If they don't, do not go there, especially now there's so many roles. Guys, please, guys, and girls. There's a lot of jobs out there. Come to me. I've got loads out there as well that people, that people are recruiting for. So I'm please give me a shower. Pe are looking for a cell jobs like this tonst level. Yeah, it's definitely highlight the part on really assessing and understanding what makes you happy and what you want to keep on doing and pursuing for you. I find that these days everyone is just in a in a crazy mode of following the shiniest object out there. Oh, says, everyone jumps into says leadership. Everyone jumps into leadership, and it doesn't mean it's going to be the best fit for you and for your future. And yes, obviously growing pains and yes, obviously it's part of the journey, but there's no need for you to go through difficulties or uncomfortable moments as you're trying to figure out if you really take two seconds to assess you, because at the end of the day, you're stuck with you, right. So just making sure what makes you happy, what full feels your heart, what are those moments that kind of get your heart comping and make you smile, and then try to look for something that aligns to it and obviously a company that will support that path. Yeah, and that's an excellent point. And keep in mind you define success. What does success look like for you? Not For your leader, not for that guy, just for yourself. You know, there are times in my life where, you know, my kids were young. Success for me was just getting through them being young and working and like being employed, like sleeping for hours. That was success. And so different parts of your life you're going to have different, different ideas of what successes. For me, success right now it's to be happy. I just want to be happy and I want to feel good that I'm making a the world a better place for my daughter and that's it. That that success for me, and so I'm keeping it simple. Now. We can go over and we're already over and some of the part the attendees have mentioned, we're okay if you're going over, but I do want, I want to give everyone an opportunity to have like some final thoughts. If there's something you can throw in there about how leaders can recognize potential, that would be awesome too, since that was something we said we were going to cover. But I do want everyone who can stay, if you can't. That's fine too. Totally get it. But we answered a lot of really great questions and the insights you ladies brought were amazing. So thank you. I'm very grateful for that. So I will start rejoice. Any final thoughts, any ideas and what sails leaders can do to recognize potential? You know, starts would having conversations and spending at that one on one time with individuals to really understand who they are at their core and asking the right questions. Right, ask you to write questions and, like you said, sometimes you have you get something on the surface, because if you haven't had those conversations past, it maybe a little bit uncomfortable, right. So you know now you're going to have to be a little patient and dive a little deeper to ask and what's important to them. How can you support them? And you know, and don't be afraid to just in this virtual space is really hard to stay, you know, connected with your team. I was trying to figure out...

...something for my team a few weeks ago, so I just sent them a door for launch. I'd sent the email them or hey or one lunch is on me. Right. Sent everyone a door. Keep onto their email, but you have to find a way to break that ice and get to know people and really understand who they are there and their personal and professional dynamics, without getting two personal but, you know, allowing them to open up so you can understand what drives them and how you can help them get there. But it's going to start with that conversation and really making that connection, and that's going to start. What if you if you haven't done it in a past, it's going to have to, you know, start with baby steps and you being consistent and intentional and those message in that message hundred percent. Catherine, I know you got to run, so if you can share any final thoughts? Yeah, joy's just says the right things. Ah, you don't leave much for us to kind of compliment on it, but I always like tying it back and that's how I do it with my team as well. As you know, our job is exactly the same way. We are in sales and we need to drive conversations, we need to really ask the right questions, we need to really show that we care, that we are, you know, in Synk, that we have a broader picture as well into the whole conversation and it's the same with us and it's the same without an employer, and nothing should change. Ask the questions. Some questions are going to be harder than others, but you got to ask them and you got to look for that next level of your happiness, of your full film. There's find your voice, follow it. Haters will always hate. So that's the other thing, right, like you can't be constantly taking too serious every single piece of feedback or every single comment. Keep a close eyeon edg but don't let that pull you down, because it'll make you a lot more on what you would expect. Hundred percent. Hannah, I know you got to go to the other thoughts. Yeah, so a couple of things. So there's two or three things. One, don't make every interaction you have of your reps are quite my conversation like. Surprise them sometimes every conversation, even when it's not supposed to be just as so, okay, open up sells, for so I put up up sports like and it builds that pressure where I can't talk to you about anything other than work, which is which, unfortunately, it is just not going to be sustainable in a long term for someone success and and do your best to help them work on their internal stock valued. You know not everybody has the personality where they'll be out and you know that the hour and in loud and the boast for about what they're doing or what they're achieving, whether they are male or female. So so work with them to get them to be comfortable in having some kind of internal discussions that at least helps to showcase their strengths. And to Joyce's point earlier, one is is mention their name in a room full of opportunities, you know, around different stakehold is just saying Oh, yeah, yeah, how is good at that or you know really is good at that, and do that as often as you can to help support their progress in the company. That was my boas. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you, Ashley. Final thought. The other other thing I think I'd mentioned. I'd add on to everyone else what everyone else is saying is making a point to be continually educating yourself and share that journey with your team. It's really easy to hate. I hate to be blase a about this, but it's really easy to read a book and Post on Linkedin. It's really easy to do that. To read an article, read a book, post on Linkedin. Talk to your team about the impact it had on you. Ask Them for recommendations of ways to better expose yourself, ask for feedback on how you're doing. It's not their responsibility to guide your journey, but just sharing that you are going through it is a great opportunity to model what growth can look like and to model the behavior that a hopefully, you hope that the people enter team are going to do as well. I am not a person of color. I've had to do a lot of work and ongoing work to make sure that I am Consti able to engage and support, especially by sisters in sales who are of color and their journeys, to be better aware, to use better language, to better advocate in ways that are meaningful and helpful, not just lip service. Even that was never my intent, but I find being honest about the journey, being honest when you screw up and things that you learn along the way, I think goes a long long way in terms of normalizing these things and showing, I think, the laggards that you don't have to get it right all the time, which is a common excuse to not do anything because that's it's false logic. But if you could say, Hey, look, I got this wrong. I use the wrong language. This was stupid. One of my best friends that I made last year became a good friend because I screwed up on a call and said something that was accidentally insulting and she called me out on it and I was like, wow, I totally screw that up, I'm really sorry. Thank you for correcting me. She's now a really good friend, but it started with me admitting, wow, I was wrong. Thank you for educating me. Coincidently, we're...

...talking about the Crown Act. If you're in the states and you don't know what that is, please go look it up. It's about protecting the rights of preventing discrimination against women with to choose to wear their natural hair versus having to being forced to subscribe to things that are either unhealthy or straight up racist or a bunch of other stuff that's really weird around natural hair in the states that have come that employers and companies could ask you to do, but they really shouldn't be able to. So the crown acts really important legislation. That's really interesting. I didn't know anything about that. I'm going to have to go educate myself about that. You know, it was funny. I wore my hair naturally because I have naturally curly hair, like really curly hair, for the first time in like a decade, to work, just like a couple weeks ago, and like I felt completely comfortable and it was okay. And you know what, I chose the place where it was okay and that felt really good. I got it. You mean eat some really excellent points there. I'm sorry, I was gonna say I wrote my hair curly and I obviously this is pretty this is pretty normal for me. Crazy I won my hair curl for the first time ever to work event, if it was I was coasting the Topo event two thousand and nineteen. I was the first time I ever worn my hair natural. I always been flat irony and burning it and trashing it, and I had three different women come out to me and say how much they appreciate it seeing some most curly hair on stage. I've never warned straight since because I didn't realize until that moment how powerful it could be. But also made me realize, Oh God, I really haven't seen unless they're like the curls of wheel drew that if you're going to have curly hair like you dream of this perfect like pin curls. I mean, obviously I'm talking about white curly hair. Yeah, there's a whole I do, but it's a really powerful like. Don' think as simple as our hair. Guys don't worry about this stuff. Yeah, no, I had someone in my career tell me not to wear my hair that way after wearing my hair like early in my career and it kind of just it's stuck and you know, but everyone has their own unique journey and their own experiences and you never know someone's journey until you're carrying curious enough to ask. I think the one really important thing that you mentioned there, and I think it's been an ongoing theme, is this this idea of education. You don't know what you don't know, and you certainly don't know if you don't ask. And I think that this awareness that we always need to be growing and adapting and changing and being more inclusive and and trying to understand other people better, whether that's men or anyone that like, we're seeking to be inquisitive and curious and at least giving people the benefit of the doubt and seeking to understand rather than judging people. You know, I think when we talk about some of the challenges with women who have gotten to the top and to go, well, I had work this hard to get to the top and so you should have to work that's hard to get to that too, because that's the way it's done. And like that is such an old idea when we have such capability of lifting each other up and helping each other to be more inclusive and to be just kinder people, Kinder Society, and they think that's really important. City versus abundance. It's yeah, there's no reason not to have an abundance mindset there. We talked in the precall. I show the fact that the most sexist thing that has happened to me in my career was woman on woman. It was not man on woman, and that's not uncommon and we think it's probably pretty generational, without stereotyping too much, but it's this idea that there are okay, there's a seat for a woman at the conference table. That doesn't mean there needs to day one. Let's pull two, three more. Then we don't have to be battling each other for this stuff. And anyone who tries to say, even if as another woman, it's just stuck in a place of scarcity and it's not your job to fix it. But you do not have to give into that mindset. You absolutely can either choose remove herself from that situation or just operate from now. There's from time. Don't worry about I'm not coming for your seat. I'm going to go get my own. It's okay, and make some room. Yeah, make room. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Hey, listen, just put those shares to get there and three of us sit on them. I mean, I don't look at you guys chase together. It's fine, they may sit on each other lappers and whatever. We got to do to make it, you know, to make that happen. But you know, and I am so horrible with the chat, I was trying to look at the chat, but I want to be also looking at the screen, and so I did see where some folks said some great humments at these I guys tried to send Michelle and known. That's it to Jennifer. Thank you, guys, so much. Appreciate you guys being here and all of your support and hope that you know something that's been said. You know, they help us along. You know.

I know that caprine isn't on anymore, but I remember her mentioning and beginning about her dad really helping her with her voice. And I probably say this on every platform, momm is, that let's get back to take your daughter to work day, because the more that men understand and see that their daughters want to be in rolls like them, the more open they're going to be to letting our daughters in those roles. Fuld this closure, my dad took me to oracle take your daughter to work day two years in a row. Yes, this was Oracle Redwood shores or this was in the night S. I went around about the t shirts. I did not understand what Oracle was. I still I know, I don't know. I know, you know. I know why sales network is going to have to relaunch that. I don't know if I'm going to have to own it, but I just really think that we, you know, I think it gave us some progress and you know, like you've been, Catherine's a good example. That said her father was teaching her to own her voice and that stuff with me for and I so you know, hey, if they're you know, even if it's virtual right and these nice to sit in the chair my office and listen the conference calls and you know was what she's like. My ask, of course, and I'll say this too, if anyone had if anyone doesn't know about him, so someone will go find the link. John Barrows wrote a book with his daughter called I want to be in sales when I grow up and the prots go to charity. Check it out. It's on Amazon. I want to be in sales when I grew up. It is super cute. I bought it from my nieces. I bought like your ten copies at this point. But and that sort of thing I love about sales specifically is this is such a great career to go into that you can grow and you can have unlimited success, even if you step away for a few years to focus on your family, to focus on something else. We've got work of got to do because when are still disproportionately punished for those choices. But by leaning into that confidence, as Catherine was talking about, by owning your voice, by doing all these things, by building a strong network, were mitigating that damage that society is putting on us every single day. They were opening up more doors. But the best way to do that start planting these ideas and showing our niece's, our nephews, our daughters, are friends kids, that the stuff is possible. And I'm a really good example. My Dad was in sales. I was raised by a salesman who traveled. I swar but never be in sales. So let didn't want travel. I don't travel and I'm still in sales and we've got a lot of undoing we need to do around what it takes to be successful in sales and what a successful salesperson looks like. Leonardo DiCaprio and the few, the guys from Glen Glory, Glen Ross, are not successful sales right, we all think of every day. Yes, Oh my God. Yeah, there is actually a question at one point that like, or part to the question that we didn't really get to, where you know, the person would sort of added events and that the people coming up sort of lean towards going to the male direction. And it reminds me of this right, that okay, they will start going over there and unless that person, that sales person, is really good and really there to be of service to others, they're going to start looking your way. So just give it a chance, you know, because people could tell when you're invested in them, when you're about their success. They know it. People could smell bullshit of my way. That's true. It's true. And Yeah, I mean there's nothing worse than the car silting. That's now and get to say about that. I saw that question too, and I can't speak to it, as if I can't speak to the position of being a woman of color, but as a woman who start her career working with a buyer who is stereotypically a little bit more antisocial. I was selling to security engineers, so they're not only engineers but their security so their paranoid. I definitely saw that at events where they were much more comfortable. They my buyers were just more comfortable going to mail colleagues. But it wasn't about changing who I was to get them to come to me, but it was about finding things that we could connect with. So, like, something really silly I started doing was I'm a massive tricky so I wore a little federation pin, oh, something just really silly like that, and all of a sudden I got all the trackies because one they're are like hey, do you know what that is? I'm like please, TNNG for the wind let's go and then then realize I'm actually a tracky and then I'm doubly interesting, because there aren't there are a lot of girls who are interested in track, but there aren't a lot that are like can recite names of episodes and have actually met on the boar card and like couldn't speak because they were so excited when they shook his hand. It's a thing, but that was something I could connect with. It made me a little more a little less intimidating to them. So it's finding those things you have commonality and finding a way to bring it out, to make it something that's interesting, that they can approach you versus going and when I was trying to like pick like people who were waiting in line with my colleague, that it. Yeah, it came across as,...

...even if I was being very genuine, just trying to be nice, I like I'd rather just talk to him. Plays like I just don't want to deal with you. So it's think about something that you can do to kind of make yourself a little more accessible. Another thing I found works really well is food. Oh yeah, hundred percent food. Talking closer to the bar. Yeah, drinks that I don't I've avoided drinks, is what I've done. I've tried stuff like that in the past. I tend to assume I'm a waitress and I do not want to deal with that, especially the point where I was really working with a lot. I was in my early s and I was like I don't need to be confused. With no disrespect to anyone who is waiting, I know like that, but like I need people to like not mistake the suit as a uniform. But yeah, just having little like little good bits of chocolate or something I must lift, like tossing on people. It's something. Yeah, I sold a counting software to fire and life safety and construction and found that heals, you know, kind of like it. Little things that set you apart, but leaning into who you are at the end of the day. Yeah, so I'm very familiar with that. Mail dominated obviously don't have the same experiences and the same but none of us do. You know what I mean? Forty five years old and I have two kids and I started later in life, and you know what I mean, like everyone's unique experiences are part of what makes them them. Yeah, for we have what we're my pink card hads. I may also still shoes on, but I was going to some that's awesome, and I travel with my P card. Had that hard hat went through the airport with me? I now I I feel like I need to find that person's name. Please reach out, because we're totally going to go find her pink hard hat for concern. That's awesome. Yeah, it's remettic awesome. P Card had, you know, and then and but the P card had also a lot of times people actually related it to my sorority, because our culture pink and green, and so then that sparked another conversation. But you know, I would travel and I will walk right in there of my P card. Had I traveled with it. That's amazing. All right. Well, I did just want to wrap it up because, analysts, we are twenty minutes over. Hopefully nobody else has any questions, but if you do, please reach out to us. So curious to know if men have these conversations and how to be more relatable to us. I get discussion. They do. Yeah, that is that's an excellent question and I've got the perfect event for that. I have an event with some male sales leaders. That is an AMA. Ask them anything there's a way to submit questions anonymously, but there's also a way where you can hop on live to ask in their questions by jumping into the studio. If you want the face to face of their spots, totally up to you. I'm game for anything, but I want some hot questions. So since some my way if you have a chance, and so I put the link in the comments. But thank you everyone for joining us. Hopefully you found this a valuable I will seriously suggest connecting with everyone on this panel. I find a lot of value in their insight on the daily and so appreciate everything that they do. And happy women and sales month. Happy Women is seals month, and please connect. Get me on Linkedin and follow our Y sales network page. Only then as well and engage with our audience. Love to answer of course. I'm always up and open to sharing and having a conversation with anyone. So you know, and I have you know my podcast and we have our things that go on, our conferences and themes. So definitely connect on linked in. I think as I'm like Joyce Jay, because I've been on like a long time. I like Joyce Jay, but Joyce Johnson I'm just find the onlykedn and connect. Thank you. Yes, and amplify the voices of other women. Right. This is a great opportunity where women in sales month be intentional if you're going to be sharing post by other people, at least in Finn the the voices of the other women. Right. I'm trying to just engage with women this month. I don't know if it's gonna I'm going to try to hold out. I've got lots of thoughts, of lots of posts, but just you know, and everyone the women's voices. You know, the linkedin platform is really busy and it's an opportunity to just make more space anyway. So thank you all. I'm going to close it out. You make it a rare great week. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front of more eyes and ears, please leave us a shining five star review. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book...

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