The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

Why Sales Engagement is Much More Than Setting Appointments

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mark Kosoglow, VP of Sales at Outreach, talks with the always insightful Jacco vanderKooij, as he shares his industry-changing definition of what sales engagement could (and should!) be.

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast,this podcast had brought you my out: reach Otaio, leading sales of esnalplatform, opin companies, sellers and customer success, ongage with fires andcustomers, an the modern sales era check out sales, amagmencom for newepisodes, resources and the book on sales ambugement coming soon. Now,let's get into today's episode, everybody welcome to the salesengagement podcast. I have with me a legend o Silicon Valley, CEO andfounder Jacko Vandercoy, my boy. What's up Jako, not much about you markchilling and Seattle having fun I'me been looking forward to thisconversation. My Times with you are my favorite parts of my day. Let's see, I e Gou make that happertoday, all right- and just so everybody knows jockois wondering who the othersmart person on this podcast is going to be he's a genius. I'm just you knowJoe K, snals guy, so Joko hey we're having this podcaston sales engagement, and I would be very interested for you to just takethe time machine back and take a look at like five years ago, like when youthink of sales engagement and what it is today and what it was five years ago,like tell me like what you're seeing like what is the difference: Tills, engagement or Sills ennablement.Let's do sales engagement, okay, and when you, when you say, salesengagement. What is that? What do you mean of that mark? Well, that'spartially. What I'm asking you, I think, like a lot of people, are still tryingto define and understand what that means. I know we have a specificmeaning of it here at out. Reach, but I'vl be interested to know like whatyears is in an unbiased way. Okay, younow like if I see if I go back andI'm Goiy to go back ten fifteen years ago and the go back of even twentyyears ago to the roots of my career. What a sales engangagement was wasprimarily when a company signed a contract with me, my company and twonright en those days was phillips and Thew early days. An later on it was acompany called skystream when they signed at contract. Then the engagementfollows after that contract, which primarily was a thirty sixty day ofdeployment, cycliter of Sofpar or Hartware. If it was a lot of a lot ofrouters or anything, atd took a little bit long could take as much o sixtytwelve months and which time they would install the equipment that was solvdand therefore the engagement was the post install twelve month. Installationipose insult three months offer instillation, that's what it was ten or fifteen yearsago to you, that's right. What is it today? Well, I think an what we haveseen is that revenues have shifted and so revenues or Prophit Erar haveshifted when we are looking at the SAS contract. Primarily the true profhetsare not coming to wards the other end of the first month. Even if you sign ita twelvemonth contract, the profhits often need a year two years. Three ofthe contracts to really Yo know become reality. Compare this to a hardwarewhich was bought on a five to seven years. Twenty years ago, Ind Soffar Wiresbought on a three to five year contract with eighteen percent annualofgrat and supportant tat wit that profit pey much were like sixty toninety days after you know like the product was purchase, installdInstlatho could be only ten percent was held back on insilation completenesslook at that today. I am not making much profit now. This is the result of a shifting of the risk mark. If Isell you, five million dollar worth of Hardwar and you're the buyer and I'mthe seller- and I sell you bad stuff- it doesn'twork you're. The buyer were twenty years ago who takes the risk of thatWHO's gonna get hit on their career. Well, both of us are, I think, I'm notgoing to buy from you again and I'm...

...going to look like an idiot for buyingfom me in the first place, we' going to get fired. Yeah, I am okay. What do youthink they're going to do it my company, twenty years ago, ten years ago, when Isold you five million dollars and you can they're probably going to buy you abottle of Scotch and give you a high five? No, why don't we talk about atFiveat five million dollars? We talk probably about a briambmw right, and that is a problem. The problem isthat the risk of those days were all of the seller. If, today, if I buy a montha month contract, where does the risk sit of the, but does the buyer carrierOderisk cauas a seller carrier always is celler, carries all the risk yep. Ithas totally flipped. That does note. That is a big big change. Even on thetwelve month contratrack, the buyer really doesn't carry it as much risk byfar not as much as because they carryit in the past now mind you buying anintrinsic platform like a crm or marketing automatial system hit's alittle bit different. Like those systems, often our BOUTA multiyear long,germ, agreen wic you don't just yeunow hop over once. He aound doing ou Ram asestablished company, so those things are long term, but all the other Sazapps you buy. On top of that, they really have a shifted brisk gro fallingwith the Shif the risk profile, everything engagement, the Navalman,you name, everything that follows: has rathirall changed, wt. Here'sinteresting. I fin asked ten sales leaders and ten thought leaders whatsales engagement is. Most people would kind of silow it into presales SDR typeof work that get the initial meeting you're talking about. This is postsales work to for I'm guessing. You know and your. I know your model soyou're thinking about like not dyoujust land. You then expand later right. Sowhy do you characterize it in this Sila, which is kind of like on boardingdeployment in order to go out to a larger expand mark? Well, you have aheadache and you go to the store to buy some. You know like whatever pill, tosolve your headin right. What would you buy it leave or what would you buy fora headache, but I just suffer through the headache I don't believe inmedicine, but if I did I'd buy Adville, I ne You and I were coming- I theSamething, okay, but Youl ee, you by Al, do you buy an adiral because the boxlooks great? No, I don't do you buy Avil, because the price is right. Now Idon't do you by Anfol, because the person behind the counter was the bestfreaking sealsperson that Ou ever met. No, why did you buy avile? Because, asa first thing I saw- or I know Adville, but could you have a headache there?You go even better answer. You have a pain. This is the problem. When we talkto SALS ENAVLMENT, we're not there to sell them. The whole sales engagementprocess is not focused on getting them to buy. What we're selling the entireprocess of the engagement process is to solve the customers problem, and youthink that that happens mostly post sale, post, Acrostar Bougd in theperpetual model bought first year bought something like whatever. I think.Six hundred thousand dollars worth of test equipment from me. You know,Howwell, you don't know in subsequent years they probably bought. You knowlike e couple hundred million dollars worth of equipment from me rightgentleman, Colens, Scootmix, schooler yeah. Still today, I consider Hi'm agood friend and person who helps me. Consider you know like what salesreally is about. Do you really think that that first sale? Is there anEnnabalman like three months before I close Te Deal? That's where theenablement started, engagement started now the engagement started after I soldhim a successful, a product that's successfully solved, and you know likethat's what he pointed that Anhe rels the salls comes into play. Today'sbusiness, a single customer, does not generate enough profits by itself.Outef then yoall like if you wint a big one, but you need to ask, say shealways win renewals or grades cross, sell if nothing else from an existingaccount, then we're looking at a recommendation from the customer toanother account. Everything happens...

...after all. The great thing happen afteryou successfully help the customers solver problem. So how do you guys? Youknow, and for people that don't know, Jaco runs a consultancy that helpspeople with their go to market strategy and landand expand strategy. So how doyou guys look at helping sales reps with this kind of engagement? Pieceasyou define it, which is post sale. I think that first of all is real,realizing that the SALLS folnel doesn't end ut the closing of a contract. Ithink the word by itself close is already wrong. We like to speak ofcommit- and you know we encourage all ourcines to to speakin that language,commint mutual commitment, wheras now one sided it's not one side of eitheraa or not towards the celar or tards a buyer. It's a mutual commitment toachieve the impact that we both thought we could achieve, and so you know likethat to us is in a point that means that you know we have three facesbefore that. Commit awareness, education and selection now mind youthat we speak from a customer perspective. We less like to speak froma sellous perspective from a cellers perspective, awareness would bemarketing, education would be prospecting and selection would beselling. So I could say, marketing prospecting selling leads to a close. Ithink that is a wrong way of doing it. I think genenrating awareness,educating the customer on the different options and helping them during theselection process leads to mutual commitment. I think that's a better wayof thinking about it. When we are trying to achieve a multiyearcommitment, an then you know both have a profitable and growing relationshipthat it's followed by three more stages: onmoard successful on boarding the nextone, many would call usage. We do not believe in usage by itself. I thinkusage is primarily a concept that the product is successful there for itssill centric. We believe in achieving impact as the fifth age and the finalstrage is not like expantion, but its growth expansion once again is reallythe perception from the from the sellos perspective. I want to sell more nowyouale like these stages and he stills funnels as ofwithin a few weeks, so wetalking about late September or what is it a week from now? All these conceptswill be launched on lucid chart where you can provide. All of you know youcan find all our designs and blueprints as part of their sills. That's new bythe way it's an announcement, I'm making on your channel Byeah, no it'scoming out, and so all our blueprints will be made public and open sourcethrough lucid charts. So that's actually I just rote on my little notehere- Ja Oda, to ask y? U About that so th, one of the things that like drew meto you is the first time we met. It was in Middlow Park where talking there andyou deliverd to me a thirty foot, long three foot tall thing that, likeliterally, was on my office wall for probably a year and a half that justmade the sales process in the customer acquisition and make them happy processit just like was so thoughtful O. it's probably the most operational process,driven thing. I've ever seen around how that should all work pleader to takethis like little segment here that you're defining a sales engagement likewhat are the areas of the process that you think people are missing most onWel, first about Theyr, missing Moso mark is why they need to do it, becauseif they don't know why they need to do it, then everything that else thatfollows his meaningless and here's why they need to do it if I'm sellingmultimean all our pieces of satellite equippment, like I used to then Benclosing one. If I have a ten million dollar quota or a one year, I had atwelve million dollar quota and Vince on my team, so close to ten milliondollar Disney deal split over two years: five million dollars. That's what wecall like a Big Bang on a number right: Five on twelve, that's how you coslygot so we call those people superstars who clote cose thos an superstar salesis very much focused on winning a few deals a year when you do that it heres a conceptcalled poreto concept, and what that...

...means is that twenty percent of thedeals generate eighty percent of the revenue now with the big deal sizis.That was always the case if twenty percent of my staff hers a real for you.Okay, if twenty percent of my staff closes eighty percent of the business, how much business does t et remainingeighty percent of my staff, close twenty percent, twenty percent holdthat number in thought: okay, carry it over okay. Today, what we see is thatsuperstars don't have that impact as much a superstark performer, that'sselling, a two thousantad thirty fortk deal can still make a reasonable, moreimpact, but not like a lot they're, not closing multi million dollar deals.What we found is that twenty percent of the superstars today only generatethirty percent of the business. Now, if twenty percent closes thirty percent ofthe business, what is it remaining? Eighty percent close: Seventy percent.Seventy percent. What is what is the the B team earlier on close twentypercent twenty perecent? This is the typical challenge that SAS companieshave their be. Performers have to nearly outproduce, but three acts. Whattheir previous generation of b performers had to do mm, so how youguys helping people close the gap like what's the well like? What's the numberone or two thing that you would tell somebody like Hey, evaluate this to seeif you have a gap so now you know! Well, you look at that. What the productioncapacity is of your top superstars, and if you see that your superstars a notcarrying the Lin share of the revenue, then you know you're going to have awhat we call a process issue as soon as you know that as soon as you come tothe conclusion that you have a company, that's dependent on every performer, anot on a few superstars, you have to act like any other company was everexperienced that that we're not the first. You got to go to process processis the only thing that can make an average performer perform consistentlyand perform Yo opera, not only consistency for that person, butconsistency across different people. As the result we say that SAS has becomesuperstar immune and, as a result, SAS is essentially a function, that'sdriven by process and not a superstars. So I think most companies would saythey have a sales process. Why do they not have the process you're talkingabout whell? We talk about sils process, we're not talking just about the sevenstages that ocecurring in sales force, the seven Hiy Yoare, seven or eight, soweal maximum ten stages, ind sils force. We talk about defining the key momentsthat occur during a sill if youwuld be buying a solution from me. Let's sayyou know, like I'm a sales person selling you a new gadget of some sortright, we're not a few key moments that you really interact with me. It startprobably starts oer O me reaching out to you right. That's probably the firstone sure, okay after that, give me a handful of key moments where you reallyare depending on me or W, O really want to have like a good, solid experience.FROR me, you wouldn't need to discover me well like I need to feel like you're,trying to figure me out YEP YEP. We need to have some kind of alignment.Call where I understand. Are you demo, something that shows me that yoursolution can align and fix my problems? Yep Demo, a we call it one. We call thediagnosyy other one. We call the prescription Yeah Yep, then I'm Goingnawant to see some kind of technical validation. That lets me know for surethat your technology works in my environment and alignes with all theother systems. I have running as we call that assisting to buy go ahead andthen probably the last one is. Is We just need to come down to commercialterms and figure out like? Can we make this work within the budget that I haveand with the Manpower and Resources Ave available? Okay, so now we call that totrade rather than a negotiate. I think there's a few more after then afteryou've signed, you want to have an instant wont feeling, and you don'twant to have that. You know like a buyer, Kille or buyers remorse that youbought wrong Su. So we think that every...

...sals person, like any athlete thatworcs with a Boll Sport, you don't stop your leg on impact, you don't stop thebad on impact or the reccod or whatever you keep swinging through the motion.So to do. We believe that you have to swing through to the sill. You cannotwait on the comet. You got to go through and newow there's a few morekey moments. All I'm saying is these are let's say you picked fourt momentsright, first, contact, which is the way how I reached out. You Discovery Demoand proposal and trade right. Those were like if I get them right, give ortake sure okay. Well, if we go into that, can we define what a reallyreally good experience looks like, and we believe that you cam what we callblue brind that you have seen some of ORT. You can blueprint each of thesekey moments and know how do even Gif somebody who's a be performer. Givelike a a minus experience now the reason or that we know that we can dothat. This is following. If you repeat what the customers perceive to be right,a great behavior, you need to deliver an eighty percent of the topperformance, whether you have a good day a bad day. You were feeling it. Youwere not feeling it. I don't care, you could be sick, pouking Younow, you guts.U, but YOU GOT TA call! You still need to deliver. Eighty percent, that's thereason why you are professional. You see this in sport. You see this in anyjob, even under the strain of all illnesses, a professional still at atcan still operateat. Eighty percent. Do you think that's fair? Eighty percent?I would hope it's fair. I mean listen if what, if Aaron Rogers only performsat eighty percent on Sunday, like people are going to be pissed, so maybeeighto percent is low right. Eighty percent is lowl, but that is on a topof formers that you only have to do once in a while right. We're talkingabout persistent perform, yeah right, and so I think that you know likeeighty percent. In order for somebody to produce eighty percent there's twooptions: Either you gain twenty to thirty years in experience over acareer of twenty to thirty years, and then you will be able to do that.Simply the amount of years will give you that experience, Shure e, theunfortunate partis are people and younger and earlier in Ha career, don'thave twenty years of time twenty to thirty or time. They need to know thatbuten like three to six months. That's where process comes in so why? If I gotalk to ten sales leaders and I'm like Hey, listen, we're GOINGTO, have toblue print out and create the choreography for each one of thesesteps. Nine out of the ten are going to say to me my reps won't do that. Whatdo you have to say for those people, you probably hired the wrong raps? What? If the answer? Isn't that easy?What do you do? Ell To me? It's you nw, like O, have to understand if everybodygoing to try to do it their own way and if I then only get that twenty percentof the people perform, that ain't good enough for me as a business mark thatain't good enough, and so most people don't y' like live with that now. Whatwe have seen with quota performance is the quoted performance of thesuperstargis of average to same it's somewhere between a hundred an hundredand twenty percent of quota. That's the reason why they're superstars, youprobably have a few on your team. We all know and love those folks of thesuperstars okay, but we already said in Sadesales. I can't have enoughsuperstors, it's not I mean like they are not there. I got to make the beeperformers work now. What we have seen is to be performers. Traditionally,they have not only fallen below quota, they falling far below quota. We havelike twenty thirty. Forty percent of the seal steam are falling as much asat thirty percent. Forty percent, fifty percent of quota that gap can no longerbe filled by the superstars. The gap that has been left behind is causingall these vpes of sales their career. Now, unless you have a product like aslack or in case your own product right, it's flying off the shelf, then youdon't have to worry about it that much because people itally a want to buyfrom you, but everybody else that is simply selling, and it's need to findthe right buyer and make them aware of...

...the problem have to do all hat. DoDiligence folks, that's a lot of outbounding, a lot of work that has tobe done at superstar performance and if these folks come in at thirty fortyfifty percent of quota, you know it's going to cost you as a vpof fills yourjob yeah. It's just so interesting and Ithink for a lot of, especially your specialty is Sass and early stagetechnology. So my ture yeah there's so much a yeah recurring revenue. So muchof that of those products are an educational or evangelical sale likeyou're, not selling, something that exists. Like your example of satellitehardware, wll those guys have been buying satellite hardware for R. Idisagree with you, but I think that that's what we want. I want you tounderstand when you use the word evangelical you're, making a wrongassumption: okay, com away, yeah, exactly! I know what you're trying tosay. If I have an innovative products, moststartup has a have a form of an infilite product right, they're kind oflike hey, I'm going to do this differently, iare a different business,molel or different, solid right. You know yourself are a great example ofthat yeah. So me buying in this case an Oud ric is not an evangelical solution.If it's Prealy you and a competitor, I may say: Oh I'm going Ta go axoy right,I'm going to go one religion, orthy other yeah, but when I'm sellingtechnology innovative technology, I'm not selling x versus. Why? I'm notcomparing you against competitor, but I'm comparing you and O the problem,I'm comparing you against what I'm currently or used to that means that Ihave to break through your thinking. Not One common way. Some of yourlisteners may know, is a formcall challenge, O selling. Where I challengeyou, what we found is that most sales organization that you work is todaycannot just pick a one single sales method and work with it. What we foundis your organization between theprospecting and setting up the meeting and fulfilling the meeting in whichrole is challenging. The customer provoking the customer more imporprated.Is it more important to get to the meeting or is more important to deliveron the MED? Well, it's? U, I think it's moreimportant to get the meeting, otherwise you don't have a chance to deliver onit. Exactly right who are getting you tho meeting Hatt depends on how your sales orgstructure here to our ting ours yeah as thers. Now, if I tell you challengeyour selling, is that the most advanciles methodology, the or theleast advanced? I don't know, I would think I think it's fairly advanced,it's fairly advanced, yes, at's, not a natural motion are you, as they are themost skilled and trained or arethet in many cases, early on in their careerthey're early on in the career, but they're specifically changed for theirspecific purpose. Right. No with that sense, that means that my SDRs have tomaster early on in ther career, one of the most advanced Skills BeingProvocative Selling Aka Challenges Oltine to provoke the customers,thinking, preferably at cxol level, and they have to do that. You know like ina time that email and phone calls are more detested to be operated to beresponded to than ever before. Right it doesn't sound that hard Jako. This is h. This is the chalege and wecan address that challenge. I have no problem wif addressing that challenge,but that is meeting the challenge head on. That is like colloing it the way itis and arming these people early on in the career of the right tools, but theright engagement, whatever we need, but we and now Wen have the right skills todo it. If we oweever say wow, it's easy. Why Tod just make a few calls Blah BlahBlah then just to dis just a level of hard work, then we're not enabling forsuccess. Then what we're doing is we setting them up? fomfitly yeah. I thinkwhat we see down mere we're not shying away from from having these folks dothat. But then, let's train them properly, let's give them the righttool to do the right way. Let's give...

...hem the right content and so on and soforth. Not that is meeting that the challenge had on knowing what it'sreally about the doing it right yeah and I think, unfortunately, forespecially for a lot of young companies in young sales teams, they can havesome preliminary success with that kind of like bashing, bashing, bashingapproach, and all that does is like reinforce bad habits that they have tothem break later, when they try to get more strategic. That's for sure, Bingoand that's sad mark. We believe that you know Ian we're coming out with newbooks, Siltis a science. You know the SAS sills method and what we're doingor retreating sales as a sign han a bookis called the SAS sills method andwhat we ill focuse on is for one brief book we saying is like: Let's stoplooking at sill as an art. Let's look at it from a science, let really applyproven Blueprinte. Let's try the improve everything a little bit andwhat we've seen is once we started looking at it. That way, we can't teachpeople early on an ecre about the SSELVES. We can give them turn by turndiractions. We can show that ten percent improvement across seven stepsto one point, one to the power of seven equals. Two CT want to doubl yourselves,improve in seven of these ki moments by ten percent, a you'll double yourselvs.We believe that this really ultimately is the way how the next generation ofsales can be treated by young professionals, who can be taughttrained and unable to do it right man. I love how you think. I think we willhave you definitely on another episode of the Podcast, and I just always learna lot. The way that you think about things, Jack, Gos, very unique. Iappreciate it thanks for sharing with us your most welcome with that set. Iwant to thank you and your listeners for having me today. Ind, reallyappreciate that we could jam like this. My friend yeah man we'll tell peoplewhere they can find you. If they're interested in hearing more about Jacowell, not about Jaco. I think that, more importantly, it's about winning bydesign were a group of sales professionals. Who've done this beforeall across the world, so we now operate almost in every country, all acrossChina, Australia, Son Palo, Toronto, Vancouver, Austin taxes, London everAmsedam, every here, Belgium, we everywhere and it's all the same. Webelieve that US sales professionals are here to help the next generation, andso look us up in the country of where your ope listening to this. But look isup to wwwd winning by designcom Col. Well, that's it! For today, thanksChaco Fuck you so man you byebye. This was another episode of the SalesAngagement podcast Jonus at sales, engagementcom or new episodes,resources and the book on sales angagement coming soon to get the mostout of your sales and gatging strategy, make sure to check out out REACHD OT IO,leading sales and metcal Plat Soe you on the next episode.

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