The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

The One Thing That Matters More in Sales Than Finding The “Right” Customer w/ Jeremy von Halle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Isn’t it exciting when you’ve got a ton of leads at the top of your funnel? They make their way through the different steps you’ve set up and you eagerly watch as they inch closer to the bottom. But just as you’re getting ready to bring out the demo or agreement, they shut the door.

What went wrong? They seemed like the perfect customer based on your qualifications and yet they didn’t bite…

Jeremy von Halle knows this feeling all too well. He’s the senior director of revenue operations at Jellyvision where he helps people understand and choose healthcare/benefits packages.

It’s a complicated industry, but he’s out to make it a little bit easier for companies and their employers.  Working at Jellyvision, he realized why the right customers weren’t taking action and purchasing their product; it was all about the timing. So he began implementing strategies to help his business development reps spend less time on leads that wouldn’t bite because the timing was wrong.

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast,this podcast is brought to you by out reached at io the leading salesengagement platform, helping companies, sellers and customer success engagedwith buyers and customers in the modern sales pera check out salesengagementcom for new episodes, resources in the book on salesengagement coming soon. Now, let's get into today's episode, everybody welcome to sales, theengagement podcast. This is Barcosaglo vpscls at outreach. I have with metoday, Jeremy Von Holly, who leads revenue operations at Jelly Vision,how's it Gong Jermy Good. Thank you, Mu, sowhc, for having me yeah, no probleman so you're our first person that we've had on the podcast that works inoperations. So I'm super excited to talk about you. You guys have beencustomers a bout reach for a long time, but, more importantly, I think, likeyour got like one of the guys that I've talked to that seems like more on thecutting EGE of thinking about the buyurs journey and connecting all thesedifferent roles together by creating this awesome experience for thecustomer. So why don't you tell me a little bit about how you think aboutthat Bo? I think to star tot just givin what what Jelly Vision does, which is ainteractive conversation? How g picker benefits it's really about crafting areally good experience for people, because it's first of all sackinghealthcare is really difficult and annoying, but we want to deliver a bestin class way to do it and we kind of take that same etthose to operations inthe sense that you can't separate or break up. You Know Business Developmentfrom sales and account management and but detention need to be a comful andand experience. So there's a really amazing from when you first come to ourwebsite and interactwith someone to when you decide to renew and hopefullybuy more products. You feel like there's one continued journey and it'snot super. You know broken up and choppy, and a lot of that has to dowith the tools and people that you have...

...in the team. But that's, I think, T S.Super Incretical for Omyon Angle. So tell me a little bit about how youarchitect that so you how many handoffs do you have you something from Bdr toAe Andaeta customer success. Exactly then, there's even like a littleintermediary step to so we have BDR to a WHO's like will set the meeting, andthen they will close, and we also do an implementation process. So advontationwill get involved along with the cant manager and there's a bunch of thingsthat we want to make sure that we keep is you know ye want te to make sure thedecision maker has a particular journey. You want to make sure the day todaycontact his particular journey and that's a lot of stuff. We're working onnow is to make sure how to we craft a journey by persomay even to to get moregrandular just to make sure that each of them have their own ways to connectto our product beyond jus that those couple handoffs. It's reallyinteresting a lot of people think of sales engagement, just as like top ofthe funnel. Let me you use my strs or bdrs to get some meetings. You're.Really. Thinking of sales engagement, though, across that entire customerjourney, like what led you to that kind of conclusion like. Why are youthinking like that? You know. That's a good question. I think there's a coupledifferent things, but what we started noticing is. There was really greatsuccess from our bdrs. We have an amazing VIDR leader and sales leaderwho really created like a somewhat of a machine like operationalized, that theycrated it so didn't, feel super spanmy. We try to make sure IU, couten andstuffs really aligned, and then it really came down to it is a. Why doesthat Bee to stop? Just at that particular moment? Why does thatengagement need to and after we get the meeting and then go dark for anotheryear, so we can try to meet with them again next year, if they say no, andthat kind of downines is you know, first of all, t e count executivescould really use that same type of you know: Messaging they're, working, ACOSS,Humoro stop like numerous opportunities, but on the acount management side. Whycan't we started using that same type of touchpoints for our existingcustomers and we started figuring out that we're actually going to startdoing pustonar development raps so...

...similar play book to Bdr butpenetrating Aur existing customers in a similar manner? I think it's importantto kind of not separate an kind of isolate thosedifferent playbookss. A lot of thike coun be transition to other areas ofthe business yeah. So you, you are congratulations. You've now addedanother letter in front of Dr. you know how s I know, there's there's so manydifferent permutations, it's frightening, but we're kind of excitedto do that too. Just because the way our products going- and you know wantto make sure our customers are service well, but want to make sure that it'sdone in a cost, efficient manner for us and and someting. That makes it easierfor our buyer as well. Let's explore that a little bit, because I've heardprobably two or three people talk about this idea of creating a development repthat just literally goes in and tries to upsell cross Sall the currentcustomer base, because that's such a huge function. So how are you guysthinking about it like yeah? I think there's a couple of different thingsbecause, as someone that buys a ton of technology, which I think is also givesme an interesting way to think about it, I as a person that buys from so manydifferent sales raps. I kind of pinpoint the things that I like anddon't like, and I try to bring that into my philosophy in terms of how Ibuild all of our tools and whatnot, and one of the things that I did see isthat, like you can have other people communicate with me. That's not just myacount manager or not just the leader. Izamih is done in a very easy andsimple and not you know creepy way, I'm oking for someone just like comingrandomly, but they should always be CCS, ot emails. It should be, but they knowbasic information about us. They should know that you know potentially they'rejust trying to check it and send additional information to feel likeyou're have an extra layer of service, but I'm not trying to have somelikerandom person Tommanwe and make sure that our data systems are set up, thatwhatever is communicating charcis in customers, they feel like this person,actually doesn' account. You know whether, whether that's you knowcertain important information about the products that they use or certainthings that's interesting to them. What their goals are. We're really lookingfor this rap to kind of use, segnals...

...that we need to build whether it's likecustom health score or engagement score to kind of help right size where theyare in their kind of stage. This is interesting in the fact that you'recool with somebody else coming into the conversation, but you want- and youprobably well- maybe you do maybe don't but like do you want like somebody tointroduce you to someone or do you literally want them to kind of like belike a Gradian into the conversation wer Ye CMCC, maybe theye respond to acouple emails and then they're reaching out individually. Like tell me aboutthat little bit to me, it's like you can do an introduction, but in thascenariohat we're kind of thinking about is like okay, maybe there'sdifferent service UVELTEERS wer. One of the tears is that they're managed bythis group of cbrs, and then these CDRs kind of treat it like in a bdrs book,AF business, where they're trying to set meetings against those differentbooks. How do you do it in a way that is not super SALESI, because they'realready customers, but in a way that still gives them other things that tobe helpful with so kind of comparing hey it actually, like. I took a look atyour account. I work with maybe someone else in the company and seems like wehave a lot of customers that are checking out this particular portal.Hey, would you want to see a particular demo about how we can really make itbetter for you, something like that? You know obviously the way Id ve, thetrows. It's not super salesy likely. We want them to penetrate and try to setmeetings for people that can't close, but it's really about like service andjust you know not being super annoying. Are they setting meetings up for anaccount manager for they go? That's wor kind of figure out right now, likelythey'll be some type of layer of a cat manager above that has more experiencewith certain products. Well, this personis more about you know similar toBDR ther. They know what to look for. They can ask good qualificationquestions. They could be helpful with content sends and whatnot, and then wecan have people that are really good at closing kind of do that. So one thingthat's always impressed me about. You is you're very operationalized andprocess driven Youve like a lot of good process. Obviously your people areusing them. I tell me a little bit...

...about your sales engagement process atthe top of the funel like how do you view that part of beginning thatcustomer journey yeah? I think the way that we're trying to view it as and oneof the things that we've come to realize is that how ready someone is tobuy the super importance in what we do from a top of funal perspective. We ransome numbers recently that kind of said if it's the right person but the wrongtime. Time being, you know, for us, opener moments really important. So howclose you are to open a rolment is important for us in terms of the buyingcycle for other people. It could be. You know how much education they've hadabout your particular product. Maybe they didn't your website ad bunch.They'e checked out. Webanar could be like an engagement metric, but havingthe right person at the wrong time has a significantly bike, lower close ratethan the right person Ot the right time. Obviously, but something else that wefound more interestingly, is that even tha were calling not. This is the wrongword for it, but wrong person, maybe not the decision maker or highinfluencer, but at the right time closed. Three acts, the right person atthe wrong time, hm and those are like basic things that we should be thinkingabout, because we want to think of the buyer in mind, and we want to make surethat the buyer is prepared to have a good discussion with us n we're notjumping the gun from someone that also bys technology. I can't tell you howannoying it is when I jump on a demo- and I like have a couple questions andthey're trying to force the den Lon Me Maye, I'm just trying to find out sinformation that it like you could burn bridges that way and then I'm left withthinking. I don't really want to talk to this company anymore. Their salesdraps are super annoying O, really thinking about biocentric mentality.What signals are you guys looking at to see if someone is ready to buy or not?So that's what we're figuring out right now. Actually, so some of it iswerrunning nout, like some pemographic scoring. You know what industry, whentheir openarolment dates are what you know some historical information di behave an opportunity with them recently. How far did they get in thatopportunity? How many opportunities to be created against particular account,but then? Secondly, one of the things...

...that we've really come to understand isthat the buying contacts, who's involved on the account hi superimportant to have we identified. You know the manager or the VP or the CHROHav. We Amen, like this tebiing group, is growing so heavily that having thatfully mapped out, I think it's also really important and the other layer wewant to on top of that is how engaged are those contexts with particularelements of our you know our marketing clateral, so you're, looking at like somemarketing lead scoring like what do you use for your marking, automation, weuse Marquetto as well as outreach, obviously yeah, so you're usingMorcetto to do scoring and lea tracking and you're, using some signals fromthat to say yeah we a Marquetto and then we have visible to which does alot of other type of touchpoint stuff. So we can we're trying to there's a lotof different things. Theres. You know whens last timtened aweb in our ones.Last time ' been or ou website. When the last time you timed ed in even fonslast time you had to connect with you, it's not just from one single source.You want to really make it like, there's a ton of different channelsthat you can measure from yeah. So I think it's important to kind of look atthat at a global level. Is that also something that you're doing in thediscovery call with the reps? Or are you trying to determine that you beforeyou get to discovery so that I that's a great question, a d? That's somethingthat ere actually trying to roll out for two thousand and nineteen is forour reps to basically our bdrs to say: Hey. My best guess is this is probablythe right person, but is probably not the right time for them to be having afull demo, which can then siggled the a hey this. This first call is not a fulldemo dreat this, like a just basic, maybe discovery. It is kind of openchat and maybe there's even just litte, more insihe STRIPP. An call, like youknow, kind of figure out like hey like what are your plans like here's, whatwe're kind of seeing in the market just kind of make that experience different,so we're not just wasting the prospects time. So it's funny again a salesengagement, a lot of times. It's thought about that SDR, but itdefinitely passes along to the AE and, like your ae, this comment that youjust made about forcing demos when, as...

...for Temos, it actually turns you off asa buyer. Absolutely. So how does an a know, in a conversation like its timeto talk to jermy about a demo or hey? I should just keep nurturing thisrelationship till Jeremy's more ready. To be honest, that's on me. That's onthat's a person like myself. You know. One of my goals in the next year is tocreate a better compass for our revenue team. So how can I better describe whatthe account int person where they are in the buying journey tohelp em an account executive or a cat manager, be more prescriptive abouttheir conversation with them, so mine's kind of looking at you know all thedifferent dataplints that I talked about before, but trying to figure out.Okay like how can we make our best guests to really capitalize on theprospect time it's funny Thak. I think there are kindof a couple schools of thought around. This, like one, is yours, which is hey.I'm going to strike when people are ready and striking prior to that couldbe detrimental to the sale, yeah exactlyand then the other one is. If I show them stuff, I can create like thislevel of hey. I didn't know that was possible and you can create demand bythat by allowing the customer to connect their problem to this kind ofaspirational demo that they see like how do you argue against one or theother there. So I gues this kind of goes into us how I buy like by the timeI'm ready for a demo like it's I've already done my research online. Youknow I've looked at pretty much everyone's websites, ive comeen, allthe other different elements there, where the demo is actually not thatimportant to me like for me, it's more specifically like show me this feature.Shell me. This thing stell me that thing, I'm trying to compare contrast,the different vendors and I'm trying to evaluate- and I think that's also kindof important it's you know you don't want to have a one size of it's allmentality for that, because majority of the time they're not coming in blind,they might have a problem, Ouan kind of reframe what they're looking at and youcan kind of up to the AI to kind of...

...understand. Okay, what are they tryingto get out O here to try to make the Dema more? You know, taylored is superit a super difficult, I think for an a to kind of know. What to do. You know Imean like for Yae. I am of the School of thought now that, like a scripteddemo, that kind of you know maps to the problems that you've discovered, ind,dor, unearshed and discovery is kind of like that's kind of like the default.That's the based on this. What you should use the majority of the timeunless something else presents itself and what you're on it kind of proposingand sometimes people are coming in and being like, Hey, listen. I want toselfdirect the devil. I want to see this won o this wont to see this, whichis kind of the opposite of what I'm saying like how do you? How does an aedetermine that, like when they're in that moment of all right now? What kindof Demo am I going to do with it? Is it cool for them just to ask you things that I've seen in the market isthat we've seen like preservecs, like someone will send, depending on who thebuyer like the contact is and their relationship with them? Butlike Hey.Would you would answer these three questions atd, be Super Helpful to makesure that we take them most of Greoar time or you know four questions 's andit also just to be honest: it's really up to the bdar develop, really goodqualification, wethe team to Develp, really good pualification questions. Wecan really understand. You know what it is that they've thatthe. The reasonthey've taken the meeting in the first place, I think those are all reallycritical, an in terms of helping the Guid, what they a should do so you'recool with that kind of pre demo questionaire idea of like hey. This iswhat I'm planning on covering. If it's not right, like here's, a couplequestions answer this for me and I'll be able to kind of tailith the Dema,like you don't mind that you not at all. I mean to be honest, like I don't wantto waste my time either. You know if there is a problem with that, it'sprobably a signal that they're not ready to buy or they just are not thatengaged. You know, I think t is an additional wayer of like how you canread the situation in the tent. I think a lot of people are just frightenedthat...

...if I disqualify everyone that I feellikeits not ready to buy hy pipeblines going to shrink down to nothing likehow do you help with that? I think it's a good question, but Ithink one of the things that we even saw this year as we started to tightenup qualification parameters, is that you do see some additional, like yousee, that initial meeting set pipeline, diminish but pype on conversion ratesdown the funnal ore sinificately higher. Ah So we ended up saing way higherbottom of funel metrics than we did a year ago, which really helps you knowthat you kind of have to trust that the process is working. That's not to saythat you shouldn't always be prospecting. You trying to find thesethings, but you know the idea is with less there's going to be a capacityissue as well, if there's so many opportunities or can't work those alleffectively. But if you there good opportunities, you can give the timeand care that they needed to make sure they close. Did you adjust your BDRquotas when you starte figuring this stuff out likely I mean likely weregoing to have I mean what we were talking about right now? You know thisis all obviously enmotion, but o t, O thousand and nineteen rer AP is goingto have to right size them, because we know that a portion of the meetingsthat they're going to be set are not necessarily going to fit the paramtersthat we think that we know our good quality with high conversion rates yeahand secondly, it's like we might not even think about hat. Not all meetingsare created equal, so you know what are things that and it's up for us to likehey, you know, BDR, here's what we think or accounts that need to bereprospected, meaning that, like we'Remi they're, missing people in thebuying contact and buyind group that we think are important to make this reallysolidaccount. You know, try to get them and leave them down the path to crite,create better meetings in the first place. Can you give us an example of like thepipeline decreaseing opportunities and an a was working? Did it? Did he godown twenty five percent? Fifty percent, like the s getting nervous when theysaw this or did they know like hey man? These beatings are just way better. The hope is, I mean I don't think itwas like fifty percent. I do think it was around like twenty five percentless meetings, the end up closing rate...

...was up signifiently, to which you knowreally made that team successful this year, the ideas quality over quantity.I really do believe that, and I think, as long as AES have later stage dealslike, I think that is is important. Me Om as it's matc. You know, that'salways a recalibration. You want there to be a good mix of like okay. What istheir total pipe? The Way I look at is there's two different matrics there'sthe total pipe line which is as a raw pipeline amount and then there's thewaited pipeline, which kind of looks at where the opportunity is in thepipeline ber in the stage versus the probability. If it's, the top of thethe basically total pipe on is superhhigh, but your way to Ipe Laneis,not tis kind of low. You got a top O funnal issue where it's too many at thetop, and not enough of the bottom. The same as the reverse, if you got a hugeway to like waited pipe line, but not the greatest total pipe line, youprobably need some more top of final meetings and its really calibratingthat as we go on, do yourbrs creat account in sales force, or do you justgive them a gooka counts and they work. It know we give them a list of accounts.Jelly vison is interesting. Our crm is like fot sales. wors has been aroundsince, like two housand and eight we've done a lot to try to really try toclean up our account universe. I would say our coverage of people above athousand is probably in the upper s like we have. It mapped prettysignificantly we're also only us, so that also helps so most of what we have is allocatedout. That way got Chit, and what does somebody do if they need to update data?Because I finding a lot of times you know knowing who to go after andprioritizing. Your Book of accounts is relying on some data point in salesforce that when they go to research, ot or confirm ith, they figure out it'swrong. And how does your process work for that because that's, I think,thit's like an operational part of sales engagement that makes our salesengagement awesome is have an awesome data. Then a lot of people reallyfigured out like how are you guys tackling yeah? I think there's a coupledifferent things there. You know for me it's having both termographic andcontact lobal providers that you vet...

...really really intensely to make surethat they are able to consistently update and keep her data base updated.One of the things that we're trying to do is we actually are going to beworking with trade at Io. I don't know if you've heard of them, but itbasically offer e ability to kind of connect a lot of these systems into oneand and process so pay something changes on the account. Let's have thisaccount, go through discover or again Datafox and whatever other databasically want to really make sure it's cleaned and ready to go so that'sit's kind of operationlizingthat and taking the burden off of the BDR to do it all themselves, becauseit's all we also know from a data standpoint: Hey this email bounce. Thisis probably not a great sign or hey. This person hasn't an open. You sendthis person, five different emails, wit: Zero, open rights, that's probably aweird signal as well. You can kind of lead them to where they need to befixing. Do you allow them to create contacts? Yes, auto, appending and autoupdating on accounts and contacts or just accounts both right? One of thethings that we did was a big project on mapping, titles to Hiehey function andfunction. So we've basically identified, like thirty thosard differentpermutations of titles, the trying to map that to where they like whathiarchy they are. You know specialist cordinator, VP manager, director notfunction theyre, an you know, benefits even resources to rewards that reallyhelps us from an operational rerspective to start kind ofnormalizing data across different data points. Okay, this account doesn't evenhave a manager on it. You know that's a typical of a company in this size, sothat probably needs to be reprospected, but again, like anything, you can do toreduce a burden on Abdr anyone to directly input but using stuff thatthey already do. Naturally, I think is also super important. If people aren'tinterested in this, they need to be because I can't tell you how manythings I see that are slown down projects that go bad initiatives thatnever really get off the ground, because the data isn't there a D andYou get reps that are all excited to move in a direction thera beingmeasured. They got incentives and then...

...they go to do their first activity andthey can't do it because the data s wrong and they go to their next one andthey got ta correct all this in that. So like. I think that this is a reallyKea part and one of the reasons why we need to have more operation people inthis podcast to be honest with tyouse, because I ' fetting it up so that allthe EDR has to think is right. Here's the play! I have to run, and now let merun that play then just like freeze everybody up like give me like an endand like kind of process for you like all right, I'm a BDR. I just found outthat this company is, you know, got five hundred more employees that wethought it did like. How does that all work in your world yeah? I think itkind of depends me segment it by a different size and how muchpersonalizashoul we want to bigger account that they find you know we want.o L want the crafter personalized message to the different people. If not,we try to kind of prebuild some of the things that we know which the plays aregoing to be so hey. They actually just added a new benefit director. We kindof have built that playbook to kind of help. Yo Know Hey: we mean your newbenefits tirector. We just worked with other companies that are in your space.You know what an intra email looks like versus hey. We have a new we'vmadeupdates to our product heres. What you might want to see it's kind of makingsure that everything is relevant to the person that we're sending it to FinoBedi Our perspective. How do you enforce pes practices? Soyou know what you want them Ta you do and how do you make sure they're doingit h? To be honest, one of the things that we we really struggled with atfirst was: There was kind of the wildwod west and different sequencesand everything, and we really had to lock those down. So we basically ONAmonthly cadence kind of roll out new communication across our entire Atreaghfunction, so we can kind of make sure we keep tabs and where contaxts are anany given point. That being excited also allows us to kind of measure andfigure out okays our MESSAAGING HON or off any particular month. Secondly,we've actually dedicated a ful resource to to managing you know, outreach andkind of keeping an eye on that, so making sure connect rates are kind ofconsistent and Bounc Raines Aren'...

...really crazy, and you know people aredoing stuff. The way that we envision them doing. It takes a lot ofgovernance, and one of the things that we can always continue to work on isjust continue to have better governmencs around who people areadding making sure that things aren't going. Rogue everything's be clean andorganized and Allall that jazz is that person in your organs, kind of managingthat or is that like reporting to yes at it, Yo we're starting to see moreand more people that are kind of Outreagh, admans or kind of like thisoperational enablement support person, content person? That's kind of you knowwatching the open rage watching the bauance rage watching the you know,efficacy of the sequences and the processes measuring compliance againstit like how long have you had somebody doing that about like two monthsrecently, but we knew that like this is something that we're going to have tohave. You know as technology and all these different benders and staf becomemore specialized. It becomes a lot. You know. Technology has been superimportant to pushing sales forward, but with that it can really become aFrankin sign of Viron. If you're, not careful. So my job is to make sure thatall the tools and and technology are super cohesive and working together,which means which creates a lot of you know, effort to make sure. Okay, hey isour crm n an at reach and Marquetto they're, not colliding? You know we'readding a content measurement like Chowpad, making sure all of thosethings are working with out reachand sales force correctly, but be justthink about how many teams that touches it's a lot. So it's super important tomake sure that everyone's aligned in that particular. I say this all thetime is at some point: OFS people are going to wake up and realize that theyrule the world because, like everything is kind of the whole business isrunning through their hands, and I think it becomes really important thatyou hire great off people that that think about this stuff, the right way.So, if you were to give before you rab...

...up your ask you this last question likeif you were to give an oxc person kind of one like bit of advice or something,that's really important. That kind os a guiding principle for you as they'rekind of pulling all this stuff together, because not as many people have allthese things pulled together, as you like, if you're a person trying to dothat or working with a person trying to do that, like what's a bit of advicethat you would give them. That would really, I think, there's like fourreally key areas, and- and this is the stuff that I try to think about and Yoshould always be kind of going to like pushing towards. Is that you know alltools and systems should be cohesive and they should be connected and theyshould be intuitive to use for all and users and even adments, and then,secondly, with all those systems, they should really be be able to becompleted from with in the same window. You know Tles, first, to really gotowards making. I mean the first toy really trie to aim to make buying andselling as easy as possible for the end user, and then my last thing to y. u isthat you always want to build for scale. You definitely need to what I think isbuying for innovation, so making sure that where the product is going isaligned with where you think that your business is going a lot of times HoAlbie for the problem right now, but not thinking about what they need. Youknow one two years down the line and T, I think the most important thing is:You always always always get the enieser feedback. There's not a demothat I do that. I don't involve at least someone that's going to be usingthe product ONA today basis from Tan us a perspective, yeah Awesom, Ma Ell. That's this greatadvice really appreciate you taking some time to be on the podcast today.Give everybody listening away to get in touch with you if they have any otherquestions or just want to connect yeah. Absolutely you know, cau find me onlinked in my name is Jermy, Bon Holly, obviously, and happy to chat or helpout come in well, hey appreciate the timehe broahkin it that Jelly Vision guys are doing awesome and for everybodylistening thanks. So much for join us on this addition of the salesengagement podcast thanks, so man, Yor, Haing man, reall, appreciated Yep. Allright talk to everybody son. This was...

...another episode of the sales engagement,podcast joinus at sales, engagementcom for new episodes, resources and thebook on sales. Engagement coming soon to get the most out of your salesengagement strategy, make sure to check out ou reach to io the leading salesengagement platform. See You on the next episode.

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