The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

Reverse Engineering the Perfect Sales Metrics w/ Andrew Mewborn

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Andrew Mewborn is a sales engineer at Outreach.io, and he joined us for the second time on The Sales Engagement Podcast to illustrate how to construct your ideal metrics that truly impact revenue.

On this episode, Andrew shares how to reverse engineer your sales to discover pitfalls, toss out wasteful data, and double down in key areas, all to ultimately drive revenue. Tune in! 

 

 

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast. This podcast is brought to you by outreach dot ioh, the leading sales engagement platform helping companies, sellers and customer success engaged with buyers and customers in the modern sales era. Check out sales engagementcom for new episodes resources in the book on sales engagement coming soon. Now let's get into today's episode. Joe Being Dollo here, senior content managing editor for outreach DOT ioh and happy to be back on the show here and happy to have and um you born back on the show for a second time because his first episode went so well. We had such a great response from his Improv episode. People have just literally been emailing me with two words, yes and that's it's a little weird it coming in at all hours of the night. It's breaking out a little bit, but he's back on the show today to talk about the metrics that you shouldn't be tracking and maybe a few that you should. It's difficult to figure out what metrics each be looking at to really know what's giving you measurable lift. I know that's a big thing here at outreach, really figuring out the actions and the activities that are actually benefiting your company and not just making you look good. So, without further ado, let's jump back in. For people who don't know you, Andrew, tell us a little bit about yourself. Thanks, Joe. Andrewview. Born here. I am a solution's consultant at outreach. That I oh, and I've been here for about three years or so now. I was very fortunate enough to join this company when it was very small. I had been in engineering previously and said Hey, these people or I'll reach. Our really building something that's gonna make a dint in the whole entire sales market. Right. So...

I needed to get a piece of that, Joe, and they actually told me no when I first applied and said Yeah, they actually told me no, and I was like, you know what, like, I can't take that as an answer. I need to somehow. On paper I don't look good, but you know what, like I know I'm a fit for this company and I know it's something, again, that I have a piece of. So came back to him and said, look, what can I do? I'm going to keep bugging whether you like it or not. So let's do this and let's figure out how to make it work. So eventually, now I'm here right and and as I've been here, I've been again very fortunate to work with a ton of different sales organizations, some large, some small, and when working with them, I helped with implementation, helps with their continued success and, most importantly, worked with them on metrics that help drive good sales behavior, metrics that help drive their business forward. And in doing so I've learned a lot of things that work well. And going back to the Improv thing that we discussed earlier, with the experimentation, there's always going to be things that fail. So I've seen a lot of things fail as well. So through your three years of outreach, and I will say that is one of the longest ten years that I've heard of it for someone who's writing an outreach and fantastic right for the beginning, and I think that story about how you how you got your job, that might be a whole episode in itself on like applicant tactics and identifying companies that you want to work for and how you can get your foot in the door. I think that's the whole episode of Self. But over the course of three years. All right, let's start with the good news that you've discovered. First, what are some of the right things to be looking at? The right metrics? Definitely, and you know that's that's such a broad question, John. I hear that from prospects all the time, like what should I be measuring? And I wish I had a silver bullet and said, twine Z, measure this, you'll do this. You know, IPO, you'll drive your business...

...forward. If you're already public company, you'll, you know, hit your number every every court. So when it comes to that, it really depends, you know everyone's favorite. Actual it depends. But what I like to look at is, let's reverse engineer this, this process. So let me ask you, Mr Prospect, or Mrs Prospect, you know, what are your key kpis that you look out on a day to day basis? Well, you know, we look at a number of opportunities created. Yeah, that's very important for us. That is what's driving revenue. We look at that, you know, all the time. Okay, number opportunities created. Now let's reverse engineer that. In order to get to the number of opportunities created. Where do you have to go to get there? Well, we need to look at the total number of meetings that are being held. Okay, if that's the case, that those meetings held, what do you have to look at before that? Well, we need to be booking meetings. Okay, we need to be booking me. So you see how I'm starting to go there and with that stubball effective like where do we want to be worst, point B, and how do we reverse engineer that to figure out what it is that you should be measuring right? Another thing that I've learned there is with these tools out today, you can measure anything you want. Right. You can measure a lot of things that we want folks measuring. The folks on a measure today is like opens and clicks. Don't get me started on the whole opens and clicks measuring thing. Now, marketing guy, Hey, I got yeah, don't guess are there? There's a lot more things, you know, than open the click rates. But yeah, I mean you will start there in like a lot of folks will want to measure everything right and they'll say, Hey, what, you know what I we're been measuring all this stuff, we need to measure all this. And then when you start to drill in the like why are you measuring that? Where are you measure that? A lot of organizations that work with don't know what right. So I always say, like, if you're measuring anything from outreach or sales engaging platform in general, like what are the top four or five things you need to measure that are going to drive your business? For I'll give you example for us here at outreach, right, we look at it...

...for our SDRs, and I'll talk specifically. That's drs, because that's one of our core markets there. And so with SDRs, right, I mean one big thing we look at is sous. Of course that's one key metric that we look at. And then going back or can you use yeah, you know some people don't you necessarily use the term. Can you say what a seal is? Sales acceptedly? Right. So this is a an SDR or sales development representative. Books of meeting for an account executive. Account executive is a person closing the deal. This accounting executive has to say, Hey, this is a lead that I believe is a good fit for our company, for for our product. Right. And so if they believe that, they will say, Hey, SDR, this is a south, this is a sales exceptedly. Okay. So the SDRs they love the sous. That's what's here at out reach. At least that's what's getting them paid. Right, they want the sus. Now there's a lot that goes into getting a sound right. So, going back to reverse engineering, what's it going to take for them to get a sound? Again, a meeting that is held. Right. In order to get a meeting a seal, you need to have a meeting that's held, but to mean the account executive and the prospect okay. Well, before you get a meeting that is held, you need to actually get that meeting booked right, and in order to get that meeting booked, you need to actually connect with someone on the other line and speak to them, or at least be emailing them and say, Hey, you know, can we get a time on the calendar? Right? And then, if we want to take it a level deeper, right, you can, need to connect with them, but you need to first engage with them somehow. You need to somehow be reaching out to them, calling, emailing right. How many activities is going to take you to do that? So there's a lot of factors that go into like what's producing our main metric for our strs, that being seals. But then you see their four key metrics that we're looking there. Right there's how often they connect, once again,...

...how often they book meetings, how often those meetings are held and how often they saund we can talk about this for days, so I'm trying to give it the high level. Over your not get to deepen all this and keep it pretty straightfor it, but you know absolutely and I like the the reverse engineering park is that placed to your your engineering background. One thing I'm picking up out of this conversation is you've talked to companies who are tracking everything right there, from not only the the amount of calls and emails that each representing, but the you know, the quality of those, those conversations, to having all the way down the line, so that you end up having dozens and dozens of data points. Do you find that too much information is a bad thing? Do you get swamped in in data to where you can't can't figure out exactly what you should be looking at and therefore it's kind of like analysis paralysis, right? Do you find that the companies are dealing with a lot? Yes, yeah, we definitely see that. I mean, you know, if you're tracking so many things, if you're tracking a say, twenty different things. It's hard to say, like it's hard to keep up with everything, right, of like, okay, I have this one metric. How often am I looking at that metric? If I'm not looking at it that often, then it probably doesn't mean much to me. Right. I like to break it up into like three different areas, right, metrics that you're looking at daily, maxtures that you're looking at weekly and Metris that you can look at, let's say, quarterly, your monthly. Right, it's like driving a car, right, when you get into your car, every day that you get into your car, you're going to make sure there's gas right, probably on a weekly basis, you're going to make sure there's air and your tires and then on a monthly or quarterly basis you're going to get your oil change. Right. So that's how I got how I think about it with metrics. Right, you want to have those key metrics that you're one, you're going to be looking at daily and religiously. For that example that we talked about earlier, that's going to be something like an initial...

...meeting set today, right, like what meetings are happening today? From our sales development representatives and why I want to see that as the say, do we have enough meetings on the calendar to what are the quality of those meetings? Right? Are they booking meetings are of good quality? Right, that are like have a high likelihood to sound all right. So that's going to be important as well. And then, on a weekly basis, I'm seeing are my reps. are they had? Do they have enough activity? Right? Are they performing off activity so that maybe they have meetings today, but two weeks from now, are they going to have enough meeting set? Right? Are they performing? Are they've being as productive as they can be? Right? Then, on a monthly basis, you know who's hitting their quota, who's not hitting the quota, and then if they're not hitting their quota right, let's say they're they're not hitting they need to get twelve a month and they're not getting twelve sals a month, then I could say, okay, red flag, they didn't hit it this month. Let's take a look back at that weekly measurement and let's see if during that week they were engaging enough prospects. If they weren't engaging a prospects, then let's take a look back and see what were the quality? What was the quality of the meetings? So you see how I'm like, I'm building on building a building to get to that sound and I'm saying, Oh, like here at the month, we didn't hit it. Let's backtrack and see where along that process they weren't like activity with there wasn't enough activity, or their the quality wasn't there. Why? Their quality was there? That they connect in out prospects, that they connected, that they book meetings, etc. Now that makes a lot of sense and it totally goes with those, you know, those four key metrics that you mentioned. Yeah, they're all interconnected. There's that main one that you want, and if you don't hit that or if that number seems off, then you can reverse engineer once again and go back down the line to find where where the problem occurred. Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that goes not just for and I'm speaking specifically. I'm cells development reps here. Right, a, he's as well, right, saying the same kind of deal. Like if we have a demo sets, I'm on a...

...lot of demos that they eat, right. How many of those are demos? are converting to the next stage, crib, and then from that next stage, then the close, like that's that's point B right, closing. But along from the demo, that's like the very beginning of the closing process. And in between there you have a multiple factors and we want to make sure that we're constantly measuring those, not only to get kind of a heat map of where things are, but all so that we can figure out how do we coach Reps and how do we enable them in a way that we don't just say hey, you're not hitting your number, work harder. Right we can say here's where you are and then, in order to get to this next step and get ten percent better, this is what we need to work on specifically. This is that metric that's telling us, hey, you know what you're getting on the phone with people, but your conversations are great. How do we work on your conversation so that you can move them to the next step? Right then, maybe their conversations are great. We moved on the next step. Well then, maybe from this point on they're not great at using internal resources to get security us done right, like. So at that point we're like, hey, why are they not getting from, you know, that good conversation to the clothes well, oh, it looks like, Hey, they just they aren't using resources well enough internally, right, and like how do we help them with that? How do we say, Hey, here's some resource on who you reach out to for specific items? Right? So it sounds to me like not only are you're going to find these key metrics they're specific to your company, but that once you do, they can, you know, reveal problems. They may not be connected to those metrics at all, right, or like ancillary issues are surfaced by examining those metrics exactly. Yeah, I mean, yes, right, so you can, if you look at a metric and, let's say, you think it means something, right, you will probably pretty quickly figure out that this metric is not learning us anywhere. Right. Let's talk about trying to...

...give you an example of a metric there. This isn't a metric specifically, but this is one thing I do want to bring up that's related to this topic. We had an issue previously where we had a ton of a's, right, and they would just throw solutions consultants on calls with no preparation, right, and this was happening a majority of the time. On exact percentage on that one but it was happening majority of the time, and what we noticed is that the SC's are becoming very upset because they weren't prepared for the call. Right, going back to making your partner looking good and the whole Improv thing we discussed previously, like it wasn't making us look good, so we could make the a look good. And what we decided is, hey, we can't really measure. We're not going to try and put a measurement around this because we can't really measure that. But what we're going to do is we're going to say this is what, Damn, you know, it's what. Damn is Joeb I do not. Is Shit. We don't do anymore. So culturally, we just had to make a decision that says, you know what this is, so we're going to take the time to measure, because it's not where the time. We're just going to put us up to it. It's be very binary. This is so damn, this is shit. As a culture, we will not do anymore. Every time an a as an SC to a call, they are going to make sure that the SE is completely prepared. And for those of you don't know what I mean when I say se. I mean solutions consultant, sales engineers, little solutions architect. You made hear. That's as well. So I think we've hit on all the points of how to determine the metrics and that make sense for you. Obviously depends company to company and Business Gold Business Goal, but they're you know, you've laid out like good ways to kind of figure out in reverse engineer the ones that you should be trapping. Let's talk pretty quickly about the things that you absolutely shouldn't be or or the metrics that, if you devote any time towards tracking them, you're wasting it. Okay, so...

...you know I'm gonna say that the only bad metric is the one you're not measuring that actually matters. And so sometimes what I've noticed a certain orgs again, because it depends, like when we're starting off it with like revamping a sales or we don't actually like sometimes they're just not sure if what's to measure. And so read Hoffman had this good quote that I always like to reference and it says building a tech company is like throwing yourself off a cliff and building an airplane on the way down. Right, I look at something like an implementation outreach the same way, right, or like, you know, when you're revamping your sales or like trying to figure out what it is to measure same kind of thing. Right, you're saying, all right, let's throw ourselves off a cliff and let's measure one thing and see if that one thing we're measuring, you know call connect rates, whatever it may be, is actually going to lead us to our next step. Right, and maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. And that's where I get to that point of like the only bad metric is the one you're not measuring. That matters, right. And so every organization is going to go through some point and we've done it here at out reacher, I word fast grown organization, but we measure some things in the past. It like we should have been measuring and we did, and then later on we figured out, wow, why weren't we looking at that earlier like we should have? If we were looking at that earlier, we would have been able to make decisions based on that much quicker. I like that analogy about flinging yourself off the cliff and and building a plane on the way down. I think it pretty indicative and correct when describing any sort of startup experience. So that that's that's good to hear, and I've heard that one before. For people that are listening today, what is one metric that you see people measuring that they just shouldn't be like the top one that just stands out. It's like, why are you even looking at that? Oh Man, this is I love this Joe. I get a ton of people are coming and say, you know what, like...

...you, I really want to see my open and click rates, like that is a number one thing I need, like open and click rates. Do not get me wrong, opening click rates, they're great for certain scenarios, but sales teams as a whole, like open and click rates are not what's driving revenue. Right. There's a way more to driving revenue than open and click rate. So I see a ton of people put a lot of weight onto opens and clicks, which are good in some scenarios but in others, you know, it's in essence, like that's not what you should be focusing on here at outreach right. Like, if I ask anyone or average opening click rates on anything, no one knows, right, but we will I can tell you, like, Hey, what's our likelihood of booking a meeting with the specific persona. We can tell you that, right. And of course, when you people to open our emails to replies. But, like, that is not what's getting you to that next step, right. So me looking at a specific open average over a three month period, like Oh, or open rates. You know, they went up two percent. Like, okay, maybe our content got a little bit better. But like, in that case, what if our reply weight, right, went way down. Right, so maybe we had a more catchy subject line, but then the content in our emails was, you know, mud. In that case, our opens is telling is nothing. Right. So what we want to make sure of is that we're measuring items that are moving us along to the next step. And I know I say next step a lot, but and that's because it depends on your organization, right, like what that next step is? Yeah, I've heard I'll reach CEO. Many media say this's a lot if you have to focus on the things that are actually providing measurable lift. Right, opens and clicks, while they look good, you know they're vanity metrics. I would have to agree with you that it's hard to connect those too any sort of real revenue lift for your company, which it pans me to say this because I love writing a catchy subject line. They gets,...

...you know, a forty five percent open rate, right like I love doing that. It makes you feel so witty and smart. That's a real big egos. But at the end of the day, marketing starts for revenue. has nothing to do really with open right. So that's great to get to hear you say that, Andrew. Really great stuff today and I'm sure you have like a ton more to say about this topic. If people wanted to get a hold of you and ask some questions, how would they do that? Please get a hold of me, everyone, and when you get ahold of me, feel free to disagree. I'll use some yes and on you, but you know, feel free to disagree with me. My email is Andrew Dot mewborn with the Amazon Mary outreach that I owe. You can also slide into my dms on Linkedin if you'd like, and we can chat there. And thanks for your time, Joe. This has been awesome. I love talking about sales enable man and tricks and all that. So if anyone else wants to hear more chat, let me know all right. Thank you, Andrew. Thanks to all of our listeners and we will see you on the next episode of the sales engagement podcast. Thanks a lot, everybody. Thank you, but by this was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes, resources and the book on sales engagement coming soon. To get the most out of your sales engagement strategy, make sure to check out outreach die Oh, the leading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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