The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 2 months ago

Spotting the Difference Between Managers & Leaders


The difference between a manager and leader often gets blurred. While the two roles overlap, like a sales manager supervising their team but inspiring them along the way, it’s important to distinguish just how important leadership is by itself.

So, what’s the true differentiator for a leader? They’re early adopters of innovation.

On this episode of The Sales Engagement podcast, we talk with Dustin Abney. Dustin is the Enterprise Sales Manager - U.S. East at Redgate Software. He joins the show to talk all about:

- The single characteristic that helped drive Dustin’s career forward

- Insight into Dustin’s personal development and strategies for the audience

- The differences between managing and leading a team

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

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Welcome to the sales engagement podcast.This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, andthey just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach well doesoutreach? Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time aftervirtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach runsaccount based plays, manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagementplatform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base.When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as they do. Head to outreach Doo on outreach to see what they have going on.Now let's get into today's episode. Hello everyone, welcome to the sales engagementpodcast. Super excited to have dustin add me with me today with Red GateSoftware. And this is your cohost, Caitlin Kelly, senior sales development managerat outreach for the EMEA region. Today's episode will be beast around the differencesbetween managing and leading sales team. Dustin, you've had quite the career, asyou've gone from Bedr all the way up into and a frontline manager roll. Can you tell us a little bit about your career path and what youexactly do at Red Gate. Yeah, absolutely. So my career technology sales. I got a little bit of a late start. Didn't get into ituntil my late S. had every stand and oil and gas, a littlebit of entrepreneurship, but ultimately I did start as a as an SDR alittle bit over six years ago, working for a database management software company.I was fortunate, after about eighteen months in that str role that was presentedthe opportunity to move into a full sale cycle account executive position. It wasabout a year after being in an account executive position that I was presented theopportunity to move over to red gate software. So I've been with read gate softwarenow a little bit over four and a half years. I spent myfirst three years at Red Gate as an individual contributor selling as a kind ofmore of a territory account executive position, and then moved up into when webuilt out an enterprise named accounts team. I started to then operate and sellin a named accounts position. But it wasn't long after I got into thatname accounts position that was presided the opportunity to help build and and launch abrand new betr function for Red Gate Austin, which was a really exciting opportunity totake part of, and I did that for five quarters. So Idid that from Qtwo of twenty all the way up to q to Two thousandand twenty one, and and then another opportunity presented itself and I'm now,you're, wrapping up my first quarter of managing the the enterprise named accounts teamhere in Austin for red it nice. And how's that first quarter going foryou so far? Back to the front lines? It's been great. Youknow, it's it's really what I'm passionate...

...about is the the full sale cycleand being able to help coach reps and being back part of deals and partof that closing process. It's something that that I really enjoy really passionate about. So it's been a lot of fun getting back into this. Yo,we're recording this in the last two weeks of a quarter, so we're definitelyat the the real fun part of the GIG. But yeah, it's beengreat so far. All right, fantastic. Well, definitely appreciating out the timetoday to to this episode. I know you know with your career progressionfrom we are experience to scally, now an entire str shops, now thefront line manager. What would you tribute your success and kind of development is? Is there one characteristic that you would kind of lean on that really helpeddrive your career progression forward? You have. If I'd just suwhat up in oneone word or one characteristic, it it would be grit. Now whenwhen I say granting great is it is a characteristic. But I think it'simportant to think of great as it's still the sum of many attributes. It'snot just one thing that somebody can say, Oh, this is my one thingthat says I have grit. But I summed to kind of three mainattributes. The first one is passion. I really believe you have to havepassion and what you do. If you're not passionate, then when the timesare tough, you're just you're going to be less likely to dig deep andpower through those those hard times. The second one, I would say yougot to be courageous, and what I mean by this is you have tobe able to challenge yourself. Are you have to be able to take onthe hard task. You have to set ambitious goals and really, I don't. I don't think you should be able to accept that a hundred percent isgood enough. I think you have to set the bar higher for yourself inorder to encapsulate that word Grit. And then the last one, which mostpeople probably think of when they hear the word Grit, and you have tobe resilient. Everybody knows, and if you've been in sales long enough,that forever. Yes, there's ten those and as a self professional, youhave to build your own mechanisms and you have to figure out the strengths thatyou need to encompass in order to pick yourself up after that tenth. No, because you may make thirty two calls before lunch and thirty of them arevoicemails and three or telling you to get out of my get on my space. But you have to be resilient to know that if you pick up thatphone that thirty third time, that could be that deal that you need,that could be that that meeting that ends up being that big whale and thatbig account. So ultimately, I think it's a mix. It's passion,courage resilience, and those are the three attributes that I think I've been ableto really bundle together to what I would say is great. All right,that's fantastic. I Love I think that Word Gray is definitely a lot ofpeople use the word grits. I love the how you kind of describe itin those three different ways. Based off of how you describe what Grit meansto you, do you feel like that is something that is could be taught, or is it something that's just internal...

...that people have? I think it'sboth. I think there's there are some attributes in the key thing about gritas a characteristic. It's really just depending on what attributes you you call out. But every individual they're kind of hardwired with their own attributes and there's justthings that are built into our DNA that you some things can't be coached.I can't coach somebody be passionate about doing what I do. I can't.I can't coach someone to say well, you, you need to have youneed to be passionate. That's a feeling you have to have, that's abelief you have to have. But I do think you can help coach peoplein terms of how they build resiliency. You can help provide tips and tricksof things that you've done in the past to build up that resiliency yourself.I think you can help to some extent help people be courageous in terms ofwalking them through what goal setting exercises could be to how can they set moreambitious goals? What are the things they can do? You can help coachpeople to identify opportunities to challenge themselves. By the end of the day,they're the ones who have to execute. There's only so much you can do. You can only lead the horse to water thing right. There's only somuch you can do from a coaching and leadership standpoint where, the end ofthe day, they're the ones who have to actually take that guidance in thatfeedback and then implement it. Yeah, there definitely there's that that saying whereit's like you can't do the work for them, like if somebody guy isgonna like they have to pull themselves up and have to want to succeed,otherwise you'd end up dragging them with the unit. burnout could potentially happen there. Yeah, so you know, as you as your car continues to unfold, you've obviously found your passion. I can feel it in the way thatyou speak about leading your team already and when you're building out your teams andkind of being in the conversations with them from day to day. What aresome ways that you've been able to lean into your own professional development? Yeah, good questions. So everybody in sales knows the term ABC right. It'salways be closing, always be closed and clean, Gary Glenn Ross, butI I always live with Abd Right. It's always be developing. I thinkno matter what your role is, whether your brand new str enterprise, accountexecutive or senior leader, you have to continue investing in yourself, in yourdevelopment. That's the only way you'll get better to serve your teams. Sopersonally, there's a couple things out I'm doing. I mean obviously outside ofthe typical reading. I think Joe Reading is one of the great things thatwe all have access to. But outside of that, I personally couple things. One, I'm actually pursuing a new degree, so formal education, doingafter a new degree and organizational leadership, actually setting the science behind high leadership. But second I just try to put myself around as many others experience leadersas possible. Things I've done Rese I went to the Mike Winberg supercharge eventand Dallas a couple weeks ago got to sit around and meet some fantastic salesleaders and just really spend a full day just just entrenched with the struggles andand issues and it's just so great to be around those people. I'm goingto the SURF and sales event with Scott least and Costa Rica and November.Yeah, excited about that one. Just...

...really trying to put myself and surroundmyself around others who've been here before me. I mean the challenges I'm facing asa leader and as a manager, if they're not new, I'm notin uncharted water. Somebody has been there before and they've navigated it and isfoolish to not pull on those resources. So yeah, I just try toput myself around as many experienced people as possible. And finally, you know, I've I've seeked out a sales coach for myself. Again, I don'tthink it matters how long you've been in the game. You can always bebetter and there's somebody to support you. So shout out to a Jeff Majoraand rethink the way you sell. My sales coach been working with him recently. That's amazing. It sounds like you're definitely tapping into multiple different resources there. If one was in aspiring sales leader and they're looking to find these resourcesas well, where would you kind of direct them to kind of find this? I Know Scotty's, I'm familiar with real linkedin. Where would we wherewould you kind of suggest people go to, especially if they're in a remote environment? Yeah, there's I mean there's a lot of really good sales communitiesout there. Obviously, Linkedin is a platform where you can have access tothe tons of resources. Like Winberg is someone who I follow pretty extensively andhe shares a great content. But you know, you mentioned Scott leason.Yo. He has, you know, a patreon group and he has hisThursday night sales where you just you can get together with other sales professionals andyou can hear, you have people speak and they deliver content be you getto have this this platform to just engage with people and have these conversations.So I think the key thing is ask your network of who do they knowwho has these types of platforms in these communities where they allow this unfiltered,like raw conversations that honestly, it's not going to happen on Linkedin. Linkedincan be a pretty water down platform to some extent, but if you putyourself in these scenarios, in these platforms with other sales professionals, you canget some real true, honest feedback and I think that's where the most growthis going to happen. Yeah, that is fantastic. So kind of afterheard the research and like the resource that you've been able to go into,the topic of today's episode is really around the difference between managing and leading ateam and with your passion, I've kind of going through the formal education tokind of take a deeper dive into that. What would you say are the maindifferences to you between managing and leading a team and how do you implementthis in Dyr every day with your team at your game? Yeah, soI think the terms managing and leading. They they're used interchangeably a lot,but they're two different, different concepts. The reason the lines get so blurredthese days as modern managers, yes, the modern manager, they have tocoordinate the activities are ultimately going to help achieve the organizational goals. Right wherewhere the frontline managers were the ones who actually execute against strategies. But themanagers also have to be able to motivate, they have to be able to inspire, and those are leadership skills,...

...those are management skills, those areactually leadership skills. So the lines get blurred because sales manager specifically, theydo have to wear both hats. They do have to make sure their teamsare executing and that they're delivering the results that they need. By the sametime, they have to have a little bit of leadership skills to make surethat the team believes in what they're doing and that they're inspired and motivated todo it. But the leadership a true leader. What they're doing, though, is they're they're bringing the organization to the next level. Right the leadersare the pioneers, they're the ones that are willing to go out into theunknown and they're willing to take risk. You know once read one time thatthat a leaders primary contribution is the recognition of good ideas and then they supportthose ideas and then they are willing to challenge the system in order to helpget those new ideas adopted. So really the key difference differentiator, I guess, is leaders. There I guess you could to them early adopters of innovation, right, and that's going to be one of the key differences is leadersare able to recognize different patterns and recognize different ideas and they'll have the Gustoto to go out there and try to make it happen through organizational change management. Yeah, so one of the things that I've learned recently with Skip Milleris like, how are you creating a culture that celebrates failure and similar tolike what you're just saying here is like. To be a leader, you haveto be okay with evolving and changing and recognizing it. That's probably puttingyourself in a situation where it this may fail, but you continue to moveforward with it and continue different ideas. Yep, absolutely amazing. So,you know, as your kind of buildy main engine team, you had experiencebuilding out in a steer shop and that is really where a lot of people'scareer within sales kicks off from there. So beast on. You know yourexperience within the Bedr function and then going to the other side and managing closers. How has this experience really helped you be successful as a frontline manager intoday's roll. What like characteristics are you pulling on our skills that you wereable to develop that are giving you a better understanding in the day to day? Yeah, so there's no know how you're an EF factor. They areobvious massive differences between managing and leading a BEDR function and managing an enterprise team. They're both beasts and their own right, with just different challenges. But Ithink the two things that translate easily that I was able to build inthe BEDR old and translates over to the enterprise a rol by managing this teamis first launching this bedr function. It allowed me to flex strategic muscles likeI've never had to before. Running squad analysis, you building internal business proposalsto try to make your organizational changes, using data and analyzing it to makebusiness decisions, to direct how we prospector how we target certain accounts and whatwe do. Those were things that I just never did as Ann ICEE.Yeah, it wasn't something I needed to... So being in a situationof launching that bedr function, it gave me the opportunity and it gave methat experience of planning and it and executing strategically in a way that I neverhad to and it's something that you I do still today now my managing thisnew enterprise team, is you always have to be analyzing and Swat analysis andfiguing out what's working what's not, an adapting and changing and being in thatBedr function and you'll launching that team that that really helped me shape my mystrategic I guess, flex those muscles a little bit more. The second thingI would say is it really helped me down with the like my coaching framework. I am a firm believer that a frontline sales manager, their number oneduty is to coach their team. Yes, there's a million things of frontline salesmanager is responsible for doing, but I don't think you can make asbig of an impact your business as just spending time with your team. Themanagers that spend more time with their team they typically have better results. Butwhat I was able to do with the BEDR team and was I was ableto build a framework of how do I coach, how do you get themost out of your people? But I was able to learn different frameworks interms of identifying skills versus wills and how do you match one coaching style toeach individual because at the end of the day, when it comes to salescoaching, not one way of coaching is perfect for everybody and one way ofcoaching isn't perfect for one person all the time. Sales as a game ofmultiple skills and multiple different things. You have to be responsible for it andyour skill level and those different task that you have to perform are going tobe different. So as a coach you have to be able to recognize thatand adapt your coaching style depending on their experience and their confidence and their willto execute against that task. So, you know, those five quarters withthe BEDR team, it really gave me the opportunity to learn the you Iuse to grow model for coaching. It really helped me learn how to successfullyimplement that put different levels of skill and different levels of experience for a varietyof tasks and ultimately this is all stuff that now with my team, whenI get into coaching sessions, I use the same framework. Yeah, they'redifferent task, different different skills, different people, but it's still coaching andit's still the core framework that was able to build with the bedrs that Iimplement today. It's amazing you'd mentioned the grow framework or the grow model.Can you explain that a little bit more, what that really entails and how youleverage that across all teams? Yeah, absolutely so. When it comes tocoaching, is the one thing I learned early on a management when Istarted getting more, I guess, more in depth with with coaching, isthere's a difference between coaching and directing, and I'm a firm believer that ifyou're doing your job as a sales coach, ultimately what you're doing is you're justhelping that rep find the way forward...

...on their own. Now, yes, you may have new rests on your team that need to be directed andyou're going to need to tell them this is how you do this, butfor people who are established and true coaching, you're not doing it for them.You're not directing them how to do it, you're not even showing themhow it's done. So the grow model, it's just a framework that makes youfirst gee, set a goal, so gas goal. So it's specificto a goal. When you're coaching someone, it's not this big overarching theme.It's what is the goal? Are is around? Is it relatable?Is it relevant to what you are trying to accomplish? So that's that's yourore. Your Oh is, what are some the obstacles that maybe you're goingto get there? So you help them identify what could stop you from gettingthere and then w is the way forward, how we could actually going to getthere. So when I when I talk to my team and when Iget coaching, our aptunities away could look is they may come to me andsay, Hey, I have this, have this deal, this is,this is what happened. What do you think I should do? Right?The old dust and would have said, Hey, I've closed, done thedeals. This what I would do. But then the dude dust and thatunderstands that that's not making them better. Is Okay, first thing you dois you get make sure you have all the details to the situation and yousay, okay, so what do you want to get out of this?Ultimately very specific. What do you want out of this rep and they'll tellyou and then you say, okay, is that that relative to what you'retrying to accomplish? This is actually what we need to be focused on?Or do we not have the goal line in the right spot? And thenyou say, okay, so now we know that. Why don't you knowthis information already, or why hasn't this happened? What is hinder this?Right, where are the obstacles? And typically, by the time you getthrough that, and this conversation is going much longer than this example, youthen I you just ask them. Okay, so what would you do? Whatshould you do? Nine Times out of ten they have the answer.They just need someone to help them guide, kind of guide them down that pathto figure it out, and then it's hey, yeah, that's actuallyperfect. Or you know what, that's good. It'd be even better ifwe added this on to it and you give a little bit of constructive feedbackon it. Yeah, I love that. I think that's it's so important toallow them to come to the like the decision of the path forward ontheir own, rather than you constantly telling them, because one of the thingif you're constantly telling them exactly how to do it, you're going to endup with a bunch of replicas of yourself and then you're not changing over timeand the process is not involving either, which is me. I love that. The girl function. I've never heard of that before, so I learnedsomething now. Nice. Okay, cool, so you know. Thank you,so much for sharing all of this with us. The differences between managingand leading a team, how you've been able to develop up your team indifferent skills I've been transferable for you from your bed r days to the enterprisespace. Now, if you had want to recommend one book or one areathat really had a major impact on your professional development, what would that beor what would you advise or someone who's...

...looking to mirror your career path?So I'll cheat here and I'm going to gift to because one I think it'sif you're an Xtr, a AE in, you're still really just trying to becomethe best you can be at sales. The book that had the biggest impactfor me was fanatical prospecting a jetblood. Fantastic book. It really helped mebuild a framework to be successful as an I see. But for thosewho are looking to explore sales management or a new to sales manager, evenif you're an experience sales manager and having read it, sales management simplified byMike Wibird, that book is really helped me build a framework to what itmeans to lead a sales team. As far as I'm concerned, he Imean he wrote the book with a gold pen. It's just filled with uggetsthat you can pull on as a new sales manager to help you run moreeffective one two ones, so if you run better team meetings to understand justhow to how to lead and manage a team in sales today. It's justa great book, all right, fantastic. I love that. Love that andwill definitely have to check both of those outs. So you've heard ithere first with Dustin. If anyone wanted to follow up with you in regardsto some of the frameworks that you're La Vergine, the grow framework or eventhe books, are just talk shop around leading a team. Where would bethe best place for them to reach out to you? Linkedin is the bestbutt shit that search bar. Dustin't Ave me red gate software and I'll popup only dust, then an a red gate, so easy to find.All right, that is perfect and hopefully the catch out before you head offto Costa Rica for that business. Yeah there, yeah, yeah, somuch. Yeah, thank you, can thanks for having me. This wasanother episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front ofmore eyes and ears, please leave us a shining five star review. JoinUS at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book on sales engagementto get the most out of your sales engagement strategy, make sure to checkout outreach. That ioh, the leading sales engagement platform. See you onthe next episode.

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