The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 2 weeks ago

Spotting the Difference Between Managers & Leaders


The difference between a manager and leader often gets blurred. While the two roles overlap, like a sales manager supervising their team but inspiring them along the way, it’s important to distinguish just how important leadership is by itself.

So, what’s the true differentiator for a leader? They’re early adopters of innovation.

On this episode of The Sales Engagement podcast, we talk with Dustin Abney. Dustin is the Enterprise Sales Manager - U.S. East at Redgate Software. He joins the show to talk all about:

- The single characteristic that helped drive Dustin’s career forward

- Insight into Dustin’s personal development and strategies for the audience

- The differences between managing and leading a team

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

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Welcome to the sales engagement, apodcast, this podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagementplatform and they just launched out reach on our reach the place to learnhow outreach well does not reach learn how the team follows up with every leadin record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can alsosee how out reachin's account based plays, manages reps and so much moreusing their own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by datapulled from out reach processes and customer base when you're done you'llbe able to do it as good as they do, and the outreached on io son out reachto see what they have going on now, let's get into the day's episode everyone. A welcome to the sales engagement podcast super excited to have Dustinabny with me today with Red Gate software, and this is your co hostKetland Kelly senior, sells developed manager at our h for the me region.Today's episode will be Nacer on the differences between managing andleading sales team. Dustin you've had quite the career as you've gone from brall the way up into and a front line manager role. Can you know it tell us alittle bit about your career path and what you exactly do at Red Gate? Yeah.Absolutely so my career technology sells, I got a little bit of a latestart, then get into it until my late is head of reason, an oil, an gas, alittle bit of entrepreneurship, but ultimately I did start as an SDR a littover six years ago, working for a database management software company. Iwas fortunate after about eighteen months, in that SDR role that waspresented the opportunity to move into a full sale cycle account executiveposition he's about a year after being in an account executive position that Iwas presented, the opportunity to move over to redgate software, so I've beenwith red gate software. Now, a little bit over four and a half years, I spentmy first three years at Red Gate as an individual contributor selling, as akind of more of a territory account executive position and then moved up into when we built out aenterprise named accounts team. I started to then operate and sell in anamed accounts position, but it was a long after I got in that name accountsposition that was provided the opportunity to help build and launch abrand new bedr function for Red Gate Austin, which was a really excitingopportunity to take part of it, and I did that for five quarters. So I didthat from Q to of twenty all the way up, take Tu, two thousand and twenty oneand and then another opportunity presented itself and I'm now you knowwrapping up my first quarter of managing the the enterprise namedAccount Team here in Austin for Redgate, nice and how's that first quarter goingfor you. So far back to the front lines.

It's been great, you know it's it's really. What I'm passionate aboutis that the full sale cycle and being able to help coach, rips and beam backpart of deals and part of that closing process. It's something that I reallyenjoy really passionate about. So it's been a lot of fun getting back intothis. You know we're recording this in the last two weeks of a quarter, sowe're definitely at the the real fun part of the GIG, but yeah, it's beengreat so far, all right, fantastic! Well! Definitely appreciating all thetime today to to this episode. I know you know, with your career progressionfrom we are experienced to scaling now in entire SR shops down the front linemanager. What would you tribute your success? I'm kind of development is: Isthere one characteristic that you would kind of lean on that really helpeddrive your career progression forward? Yea? If I had some one up in one oneword or one characteristic out, it would be great. Now, when I say gratiangreat is it is a characteristic, but I think it's important to think of great,as is still the sum of many attributes. It's not just one thing that somebodycan say: Oh this is my one name that says I have grit, but I summit to kindof three main attributes. The first one is passion. I really believe you haveto have passion and what you do if you're, not passionate, then when thetimes are tough you're, just you're going to be less likely to dig deepempower through those those hard times, the second one, I would say you got tobe courageous, and what I mean by this is you have to be able to challengeyourself. You have to be able to take on the hard task. You have to setambitious goals and really I I don't think you should be able to accept thata hundred percent is good enough. I think you have to set the bar higherfor yourself in order to encapsulate that word Grit and then the last onewhich most people probably think of when they hear the word great and youhave to be resilient. Everybody knows him if you've been in tales long enoughthat forever, yes e, there's ten nose and a as a sales professional. You haveto build your own mechanisms and you have to figure out the strength thatyou need to encompass in order to pick yourself up after that tenth now,because you may make thirty two calls before lunch, and thirty of them arevoice. Mills and three are telling you to get out of my get out O my space,but you have to be resonant to know that if you pick up that phone thatthirty third time that could be that deal that you need that could be thatthat meeting that ends up being that big will in that big account. So,ultimately, I think it's a mix, it's passion, courage, resilience and thoseare the three attributes and I think I've been able to really bundletogether to what I would say is great, O a that's fantastic. I love. I thinkthat Word Grit is definitely a lot of people use the word grass. I love thehow you kind of describe it in those three different ways based off of howyou describe what correct means to you. Do you feel like that is something thatis could be taught or is it something that's just internal that people have?I think it's both, I think. There's...

...there are some attributes, and the keything about grit is a character. is like it's really just depending on whatattributes you call out, but every individual they're kind of hard wiredwith their own attributes and there's just things that are built under a DNAthat you some things can't be coached. I can't coach somebody to be passionateabout doing what I do. I can't I can't coach someone to say well, you you needto have you need to be passionate, that's a feeling. You have to havethat's a belief you have to have, but I do think you can help coach people interms of how they build resiliency. You can help provide tips and tricks ofthings that you've done in the past to build up that resilience to yourself. Ithink you can help to some extent help people be courageous in terms ofwalking them through what goal setting exercises could be to? How can they setmore ambitious goals? What are the things they can do? You can help coachpeople to identify opportunities to challenge themselves, but the end ofthe day they're, the ones who have to execute there's only so much you can doyou know you can only l leave the horse to water, then right, there's only somuch. You can do from a coaching in leadership standpoint where, at the endof the day, they're the ones who have to actually take that guidance in thatfeedback and then implement it yeah. So definitely there's that that sayingwhere it's like, you can't do the work for them like. If somebody is going toL, they have to pull themselves up and have to watch to succeed. Other waysyou'd end up dragging them with you and it burn out could potentially happenthere yeah. So you know as you as your curt continues tenfold. You'veobviously found your passion. I can feel it in the way that you speak aboutleaving your team already and when you're building out your teams, sayingkind of being in the conversations with them from day to day what are some waysthat you've been able to lean into your own professional development, yeah goodquestion, so everybody in sales knows the term ABC right. It's always beclosing. L always be close on plain Gary Gonos, but I I always leave withAbd Right. It's always be developing. I think, no matter what your role is,whether you're brand new SDR enterprise account executive or senior leader. Youhave to continue investing in yourself in your development. That's the onlyway you'll get better to serve your teams. So personally, there's a couplethings. I'm doing I mean obviously outside of the typical reading. I thinkyou reading is one of the the great things that we all have access to, butoutside that I personally a couple things: one I'm actually pursuing a newdegree, so formal education doing after a new degree an organizationalleadership actually studying the science behind hind leadership. Butsecond, I just try to put myself around as many others experienced leaders aspossible things. I've done rely. I went to the Mike Wynberg supercharge eventin Dallas a couple weeks ago got to sit around and meet some fantasticsallenders and just really spend a full day, just just entrenched with thestruggles and issues and- and it's just so great to be around those people, I'mgoing to the surf and sales of it with Scotland, Posta Rica in November. Yeahexcited about that one. Just really...

...trying to put myself and surround myself aroundothers, who've been here before me. I mean the challenges I'm facing as aleader and as a manager they're not new, I'm not an unchartered water. Somebodyhas been there before and they've navigated it in his foolish to not pullon those resources so yeah. I just try to put myself around as manyexperienced people as possible. And finally, you know I've. I've seek out asales coach for myself, but you know I don't think it matters how long you'vebeen in the game. You can always be better and there's somebody to supportyou so shut out to a Jeff, Jor and rethink the way you sell. My salescoach been working with him recently. That's amazing. It sounds like you'redefinitely tapping into multiple different resources there. If one wasan aspiring sales leader and they're looking to find these resources as well,where would you kind of direct them to kind of find this? I know Scaly, I'mfamiliar with BEA linked in. Where would we? Where would you kind ofsuggest people go to, especially if they're in a remote environment, yeah there's I mean there's a lot ofreally good sales communities out there. Obviously linked on is a platform whereyou can have access to tons of resources. Mike Weinberg is someone whoI follow pretty extensively and he shares a great content, but you knowyou mentioned Scott Lees and Yo. He has a patron group and he has his Thursdaynight sales, where you just you, can get together with other salesprofessionals and- and you can hear yea people speak and they deliver content.But you get to have this this platform to just engage with people and havethese conversations. So I think the key thing is ask your network of who dothey know who has these types of platforms in these communities wherethey allow this unfiltered like raw conversations that honestly, it's notgoing to happen on link in Linkedin can be a pretty water down platform to someextent. But if you put yourself in these scenarios in these platforms withother sales professionals, you can get some real, true, honest feedback and Ithink that's where the most growth is going to happen. Yeah that is fantastic,so kind of after the the research and like the research that you've been ableto go into. The topic of today's episode is really around the differencebetween me and a Jean and leading a team, and with your passion of kind ofgoing through the formal education to kind of Dick to a deeper dive into that.What would you say are the main differences to you between managing andleading a team, and how do you implement this in to your every day,with your Tamayo Game? Yeah, so I think the terms managing and leading theythey're using interchangeably a lot but they're two different differentconcepts. The reason the lines get so bored these days as modern managers,just the moderanter they have to coordinate the activities, areultimately going to help achieve the organizational culls. Great Word werethe front line. Managers were the ones who actually execute against strategies,but the managers also have to be able to motivate. They have to be able toinspire, and those are leadership...

...skills. Those are management skills.Those are actually leadership skills, so the lines get blurred because salesmanager, specifically they do have to wear both hats. They do have to makesure their teams are executing and that they're delivering the results thatthey need, but at the same time they have to have a little bit of leadershipskills to make sure that the team believes in what they're doing and thatthey're inspired and motivated to do it, but the leadership a true leader. Whatthey're doing, though, is there they're bringing the organization to the nextlevel right? The leaders are the pianners they're, the ones that arewilling to go out into the unknown and they're willing to take risk. You knowonce to read one time that that a leader's primary contribution is therecognition of good ideas, and then they support those ideas, and then theyare willing to challenge the system in order to help get those new ideas adoptit. So really the key difference. Differentiator, I guess, is leadersthere. I guess you could see them early adopters of innovation right and that'sgoing to be one of the key differences is leaders are able to recognizedifferent patterns and recognize different ideas and they'll have thethe Gusto to to go out there and try to make it happen to organizational changemanagement yeah. So one of the things that I like recently was Kitmer is like:How are you creating a culture that celebrates failure and similar to likewhat you're just saying here is like to be a leader. You have to be okay withevolving and changing and recognizing it, that's probably putting yourself ina situation where it this may fail, but you continue to move forward with itand continue different. I guess yeah, absolutely amazing. So you know eitherkind of billy, Manigan team you've had experience building out an ast or shop,and that is really where a lot of people creer within sales kicks offfrom there. So beast on. You know your experience, but in the BEDR functioningand then going to the other side and managing closers. How has thisexperience really helped? You Be Successful as a front line manager intoday's role. What like characteristics are you pulling on our skills that youare able to develop that are giving you a better understanding and the day today yeah? So there's? No, no, how you in an affected! There are obviousmassive differences between managing and leading a Dr Function and managingan enterprise team, they're, both beasts and their own right with justdifferent challenges. But I think the two things that translate easily that Iwas able to build in the BEDR world and translates over to their priday Emil,but managing this team is first watching his bedr function. It allowedme to flex strategic muscles, like I've never had to before running swatanalysis. You building internal business proposals to try to make yourorganizational changes using data and analyzing it to make business decisionsto direct how we prospect or how we target certain accounts and what we do.Those are things that I just never did as n an ice yea. It wasn't something Ineeded to do so being in the situation...

...of launching that Dr Function. It gaveme the opportunity- and it gave me that experience of planing in an executingstragetical in a way that I never had to and it's something that I do stilltoday now my managing this new enterprise team is, you always have tobe analyzing and squat analysis and fining out, what's working, what's notin adapting and changing and being in that that bd function and you'velaunching that team that that really helped me shape. My my strategic, Iguess, flex those muscles a little bit more. The second thing I would say isit really helped Me Dowd in my coaching frame work. I am a firm believer that afrontline sales manager, their number one duty- is to coach their team. Yes,there's a million things of front line sales managers responsible for doing,but I don't think you can make as big of an impact to your business as justspending time with your team, the managers that spend more time with yourteam. They typically have better results, but what I was able to do with the B DrTeam was. I was able to build a framework of how do I coach?How do you get the most out of your people, but I was able to learndifferent frameworks in terms of identifying skills versus wills, andhow do you match one coaching style to each individual, because at the end ofthe day, when it comes to sales, coaching, not one way of coaching isperfect for everybody and one way of coaching isn't perfect for one personall the time. You know sales is a game of multiple skills in multipledifferent things. You have to be responsible for, and your skill leveland those different past that you have to perform are going to be different.So a coach you have to be able to to recognize that an adapter coachingstyle, depending on their experience and their confidence and their will toexecute against that task. So you know those five quarters with the BDRA. Itreally gave me the opportunity to to learn the Y. I use the grow model forcoaching. It really helped me learn how to successfully implement that putdifferent levels of skill and different levels of experience for a variety oftasks, and ultimately this is all stuff that now with my team, when I get intocoaching sessions, I use the same framework. Yeah they're, different task,difference, different skills, different people, but it's still coaching andit's still the core framework that was able to build with the BEDR that Iimplemented it. It's amazing you'd mentioned the grow framework or thegrow Adel. Can you explain that a little bit more? What that reallyentails and how you leverage that across all teams, yeah absolutely so when it comes tocoaching there's the one that I learned early on a magny, I started gettingmore. I guess more in depth with with coaching, is there's a difference between coachingand directing, and I'm a firm believer that, if, if you're doing your job as asales coach, ultimately what you're doing is you're just helping that repfind the way forward on their own. Now,...

...yes, you may have new arrests on yourteam that need to be directed and you're going to need to tell them. Thisis how you do this, but for people who are established and true coachingyou're not doing it for them you're not directing them how to do it, you're,not even showing them how it's done so the grow model. It's just a frameworkthat makes you first G CETACAE. So G is goal. So it's specific to a goal. Whenyou're coaching someone it's not this big overarching fame, it's! What is thegoal or is around? Is it relatable? Is it relevant to whatyou are trying to accomplish so that that your are your ow is what are someof the obstacles that maybe you're going to get there, so you help themidentify what could stop you from getting there and then w is the wayforward. How are we going to actually going to get there? So when I, when Italk to my team and when I get coaching opportunities, the way I could look isthey may come to me and say hey I have this. I have this deal. This is this.Is What happened? What do you think I should do a right. The Old Dustin wouldhave said. Hey I've closed done to deals this. What I would do, but thenthe you dustin that understands that that's not making them better is okay.First thing you do, is you get make sure you have all the details to thesituation and you say okay, so what do you want to get out of this? Ultimately,very specific? What do you want out of this rep and they will tell you, andthen you say, okay- is that that relative to what you're trying toaccomplish this is actually what we need to be focused on. Where do we nothave the goal line in the right spot, and then you say okay, so now you knowthat why? Why don't you know this information already or why hasn't thishappened? What is henrets right? What are the obstacles, and typically by thetime you get through that, and this conversation is going much longer thanthis example? You, then you just ask them okay. So what would you do? Whatshould you do nine times out of ten? They have the answer. They just needsomeone to help them guide kind of guide them down that path, to figure itout, and then it's hey, yeah, that's actually perfect, or you know it,that's good. It be even better if we added this on to it, and you give alittle bit of constructive feedback on the Oh yeah. I love that. I thinkthat's it's so important to allow them to come to the like. The decision ofthe path forward on their own rather than you constantly telling them,because one of the thing, if you're constantly telling them exactly how todo it, you're going to end up with a bunch of replicas of yourself and thenyou're not changing over time and the process is not of all be. Neither whicis we. I love that the growl function. I've never heard of that before. So Ilearned something now: Nice, okay, cool s, so you know thank you so much forsharing all of this with us. The difference is between me and Gen andleading a team. How you've been able to develop up your team and differentskills have been transferable for you from Er Vedras to the enterprise space.Now, if you have a recommend one book or one area that really had a majorimpact on your professional development,...

...what wouldn't that be? Or what wouldyou advise or someone who's looking to me or your curea? So I'll cheat here,you know my gift to because one I think it's if you're anXDR and ae and you're still really just trying to become the best. You can beat sales. The book that the biggest impact for mewas fanatical prospecting by jet blood fantastic book and really help me builda framework to be successful as an ice, but for those who are looking toexplore sales management or a new to sales manager. Even if you're anexperience sells manager and haven't, read it sales, magem nt, simplified byMike Winberg. That book has really helped me build a framework to what itmeans to lead his hell team. As far as I'm concerned, he I mean he wrote thebook with a gold pen. It's just filled with nuggets that you can pull on as anew sales manager to help you run more effective one. The ones of you runbetter team meetings to understand just how how to lead and manage a team insales. Today, it's just a great book, all right, fantastic. I love that lovethat and I'll definitely have to check both of those out. Do you heard it here?First with Dustin, anyone wanted to follow up with you in regard to some ofthe frameworks that your Lever Gin at the Gro frame, work or even the bucksare just talk shop around leaving a team where it be the best place forthem to reach act to you. Linton is the best spot, just at that search BarDustin, Aveny, red gates, software and L Hill op book, only dust, ten avna redgate so easy to find all right that is perfect and hopefully they'll catchthat before you head off to a coster ITA for that business. Yeah there you so much yeah. Thank you cain thanks forhaving me, this was another episode of the SalesEngagement podcast to help this get in front of more eyes and ears. Pleaseleave us a shining five star review join us at sales engagement com for newepisodes, resources in the book on sales engagement to get the most out ofyour sales engagement strategy, make sure to check out out reached out iothe leading sales engagement platform, see you on the next episode.

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