The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

How Flat Compensation Revolutionizes Culture w/ Jamison Powell


It’s an all-new way to compensate that takes out the aggression and possessiveness but leaves the drive and the ownership.

In this episode, I interview Jamison Powell, VP of Sales at, about their brilliant flat compensation plan.

What we talked about:

  • Prioritizing company goals over individual goals
  • The effect on culture that flat compensation creates
  • The human drive for excellence beyond wealth

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Sales Engagement in your favorite podcast player.

Hey folks, it's under me born. Now, before jumping in, I've got to tell you that on least two thousand and twenty one, on May eleven through thirteen, were focusing on how to win together in the new sales era. You'll learn new go to market strategies, get deeper funnel insides and actional takeaways for your entire org from revenue leaders, a Highgro startups and fortune, five hundred companies and are very special guests or none other than Guy Raz the podcaster and author of how I built this and carry lawns, the first female fighter pilot in the US Navy. Come Save Your seat for this high energy online event at only stock outreach. That I oh. Now let's get into it. Welcome to the sales engagement a podcast. This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, and they just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach. Well does outreach? Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as they do. Head to outreach, Doo on outreach to see what they have going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Hey, everybody, welcome to the sales engagement podcasts. Mark Possible on, the VP of sales for our reach. This is my first podcast to host a probably a year. Some super pump to meet with my man Jamison Powell, who's a VP of sales at Mondaycom what's up, Jamison? Are you doing? Mark? Good, Hey, this is never happened to me. I probably don't like seven of these. Man, we just had this killer conversation that we happen to record that we're going to go back in time. We both agree we should make it the podcast. You're down for this right, I'm down. Let's go back. So, if you guys ever wanted to be a fly in the wall up to fast growing, stass start up sales leaders just like talking and not even thinking about being recording, or according to Pokat, you're about to get as so this is like the real deal and really appreciated your Lett us do that Jameson. I was measuring my conversation. I really enjoyed it. Cool. Why? Hope Y'all enjoy this conversation that's coming up. It's real raw and fun and you know, listen, we'll catch on the end and to to say goodbye. Hey, Jamison, what's going on, Musch man, how you doing good? Yeah, yeah, you well, I'm doing real good. Man. Got To talk to you and do a little podcast singing with Jugor here. Are you ready? We do in the podcast hours? This the planning part. Well, I'll tell you, man, unprepared for podcast are the that's Oh, man, it's a setup. Well, I listen, I'm...

...happy to do a prep session. Let me tell you what I do and then you can tell me if you want to do or not, either ways, about better here, how to introduce you, and then we decide one area where you feel like you really can, you know, sound super smart opinion, maybe little controversy, and I will will formulate an initial question. I'll ask you that question and literally you'll just see me and all I do is I listen and as you talk, I get curious and I'll write down other questions and I just ask you questions. To get pretty deep. So the I think, is, if you want to do now, pick something that you can talk intelligently about for twenty minutes or because I'm going to, I just keep picking it. Stuff that you say look like what would be interesting to you? What's on your mind that you've been itching to, I don't know, and cover or you think as a good topic that your audience is always after. I found the more tactical, the better it's receiving. So help me understand, like where you where your area of expertise as like, are you a prospector or closer and ops guy, like, where would you put your carry? Re put myself in strategy, to be honest. Now, strategy, okay, probably more than tactics, but I'm pretty good at the tactical plays. You need those to lead up to the strategy in general. But I don't know, I look at I look at everything like a big chess board, right and all the all the moves are important. They lead up to the big win and I'm really good at figuring out how to use a runway, how to then optimize the runaway mode lawn. Put up some lights, pave it right, put down some stripes and get get it completely optimized, build new runways. We've got a lot of interesting things that happen at Monday. I mean, for one, where a hundred percent inbounds, right, so that's pretty unique. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot that goes into that. It's not that we don't obviously engage in work, a lot of abound effort, but it's too it's two inbounds and we are doing some things around planning to attempt funding route to market on on outbound. So there's going to be some some things that we we work on soon. I think it's also interesting about Monday is these are the like I'm going through the reasons why I joined as I was like thinking, wow, this place is really neat. We're a hundred percent flat colors facture. We No, no, commission. was because it's all about light, yes, and no, it's actually not because of that. It's because you have an entire organization that's a line to the same goal. Right. So there's no sales president's Club, there's no commission. We're no better or worse than product or R and D or marketing. We're just a different discipline, a different effort, but the entire company is aligned to building the company right rather than sales...

...a line to build their bank account. So there is no stepping on each other and there is no pushing the prospect right. It's a very consultative approach to make sure we obviously try to get them on our enterprise plan and we try to get them for as many seats as possible, but it's not that typical sales routine. What do you measure? We still measure on everything you've measure around sales. We still do forecasting. I waited forecast. I've got committed forecast, which is a true value of everything they commit. I've got activities, I've got conversion rates, I've got all the normal stuff you would run the business on. I still do performance management plans. You know, people go on. You know verbal warnings, written warnings, plans, departures. We have promotion cycles based on qualitative and quantitative stuff. So the quantitative, obviously, is the quotas and achievements and the qualitative would be things that matter to us like culture and internal impact and sales skill and process. So it's the same. I mean it wasn't a huge departure for me. There's a lot of folks like me that will always work as hard as possible to win regardless. As long as we're paid fairly, we're good. It's not about reaching for those accelerators and the extra stuff. Right, as long as there's kind of a path and reward and recognition will be so no variable cup at all. Now we did actually just release a bonus plan for two thousand and twenty one, which will be awarded in two thousand and twenty two, which is small but fair. It's again the entire company is on a bonus plan. So again we're not doing anything that's different, but it is another element. Now we have a higher ote than we did once before and it allows us to Sil reward folks and we do it, you know, on a sliding scale based on production, but it allows us to add a bit of that component without losing who we are all right around this commission play. But that has a lot of I mean there's a lot of pros to that. You've never seen a more beautiful culture as far as I'm concerned. I think lots of companies have great cultures. I would go toe to toe with anybody. We've got the most supportive, collaborative culture to our guys go into a hundred hundred and fifty two hundred percent, but not without lifting others with them, you know, come along for the ride and lots of teaming up on deals to make sure that the customer gets exactly what they're hoping for. A whole lot of support and that's really, really good. We feel that all the way through to even in our support. They love the buying journey, they love the way we support the customer, the way we've on boarded them. If have an issue to reach out. They just love everybody on Monday because everywhere Monday's connected to everybody money. So I think that's kind of unique, very unique. Actually. I have a mentor who worked at Floral...

Sun who works at all site. He leads all of their sales team and they four years ago and he went there three or four years ago. They are on the same thing the commissions and it broke get some point. Like they like, they couldn't hire the talent needed to get the really big deals because those raps were making so much more money other places on variable plans and they just couldn't camp them at a fixed rate in a way that would attract the talent that help them when are you got me? And you guys aren't quite as big as that. They that was probably they are probably around three or fourzero employees, two or three thousand employees, and they were public and then, I guess. So yeah, I can see that. I think that's actually an interesting argument because I think they're right in a certain way. You're not going to get the absolute heavy hitters. We're not too far away from like a standard ot right. So we're not we're not too far away from something you could see in the market and we've created a career path that actually has an accelerated path to senior. So there's there's actually several nice fast jumps until you're a senior that slows down to annual. So what happens for us is we probably wouldn't go and hire the I can make a half a million to a million a year selling person. However, we might have that person after two or three years. Does that make sense? Like they might end up becoming that as a senior strategic right associate, a advanced senior senior, advanced strategic senior strategic. They might grow those ranks and earn something similar. But then we have consistency, predictability a lot of knowledge rather than finding them. But I can understand their argument. It does make it difficult. But those those folks also will rub the culture differently. Right. Those folks are in it to actually chase that money. is nothing wrong with it, it's just not. It's not what we've built. And those folks we kind of start to rub and create friction across this teaming aspect around building the entire business to a billion in our right versus. I hit my quote of million or two million and I took homes to cash. It says, since we don't like you got this line of what to pay in budget for, in plan, for x amount of productivity per dollar compensation. Right. So't just make them that easy to us say that we're going to pay out a hundred thousand dollars on a million dollars of production. So the way that a typical sales or thinks about that is I'm going to overpay for my overperformers and I'm...

...going to pay for that by saving money on under performers that aren't its valuable. You know, they might average out to the same, but that also makes it easier for me to turn and get rid of the underperformers so that I can maybe start to bring in more top performers. Do you see any issues that we probab should be recording the podcast right now. But like you lose that subsidy program like will you, you reverse the subsidy program and you say, listen, I'm not going to pay my top performers at best so that I can pay my bottom performers to more. That seems a little count intuitive. Most probably why the bonus plan is now enabled, because the bonus plan is really the only part of a plan that has the flex right based on production, where we can lean into that. However, you're bringing up a point around turning out employees. That means we're not hiring very well. We haven't done a good job and enabling in anyway. We don't really know our sweet spot. I think that if you do that right and you create the career pathing for people to have aggressive but achievable quotas, demonstrate consistency product building up right into their next promotion where they're taking on more quota, it starts to work out very, very well. You know, we are looking at revenue right account. We are managing that, but we also have like super aggressive goals and we're able to achieve them through this teaming aspect. So it's we're not about the say. I mean you've been there with these, the sales culture, the real like boiler room sales culture, like the the crushers, the fire's a good example, the folks that are really good for the culture when they're not one, when they're number one, then the minute their number two they're like that was a blue bird, that person got lucky, that was a channel deal. That toxicity right. It's like it's crazy. And we don't have the distraction of a new complaint every year because you get it wrong. So, Hey, we're at we're at sales kick off and here's the new complaint. Let's forgot to beat it, and then a new one. And every month they're looking at, oh I might earn this, Oh they got this one wrong. They miss the accelerator. I sent it back. Okay, get I got paid right, I didn't. I'm none of those distractions. I'd say what else I have? I can be talked about tactics before. I can switch on a dime any I can change segmentation, I can change territories, I can switch teams. I can do anything's no financial impact on anybody and they're all aligned to the big goal. And that big goal means like yeah, let's do it. You want to put me on that team? You won't. You want me to run this project? Want me to do something different? You want to, I can move things around. Mid Market segmentation. You're going to breach into enterprise the next two months because the lead flows low there and in mid market and the lead fast. Healthy and enterprise to you guys are going to grab some of those for now so that we can at least hit them in the thirty day cycle. Whether war, mistring can do anything. There's no limitation to odd John or Stephan's be so upset when I cut up their territory and the optoridition policy. Yeah, yeah, what's your whole period? And then, yeah,..., okay, we're cutting up long island, this on Suffolk. Which one do I get? You know, I can I choose. I've been here longer. It's all that nonsense goes after. Have you ever experienced like them to situation far beating here? No, never been. I mean, look, it even hit me when they when they reached out to talk to you about the role, just like wait, what, you know, it's flat, and I'm like for a reason right, like what? Why? And then it's like Ah, you know, Lineman, it's great. And you know, I'll say that it took so it took. It took me a pause to think about it right, because I think I've had it, you know, just like in most people you've got really great earning gears. You can haveage amounts. You kind of got to think that way. But for me it was even like it's fair enough. And if I look at the big picture and if I said look, if I'm going to be here five to seven and years, even if I look at this like a four year cycle, you're resting period. If I look at it this way, right, and then average out that, and let's say two out of the four years I'm recognized for something, you know, a bonus or a race. Okay, so throw that and I live at the benefits. Now take all that income and divide up by for what are you earning years? I can live with it. And that's that's what got me there. You have ramps. Do I have what you have? Break ramps that new hire reams, or do they just started their oats? Though. Yeah, every well, everyone starts at their oats, at everyone starts at their calm right. So whatever I give them, I give them, but there they will ramp up. We have a really, really good enablement program because we do want people to be successful. We put them through pretty much thirty day proper, proper on boarding. I mean everything from training Telem us, like they're they're away from the group, they're doing this on board. We don't see them, you know, they kind of start and I see him in thirty days, right, and they go through that cycle and then we put in place some things around continuous enablement and development so that there's that continuation of taking the foundation and going into well, here's the intermediate stuff that will cover in months two and three and then we'll jump to advanced and then we'll jump to expert level as you come off your six month ramp cycle and you're at full quarter. But we also measure like pro pupperly the qualitative and quantitative goals. We score them, we go through them, we coach people and you know, we do have some departures, but it's not a lot and the people that we put we've never anybody leave. I'll tell you that much like the people are not leaving. That's not timely, true, but you get it. Most people are not leaving. You know, we have to part it with some for the right reasons, but anybody we put on a plan, for the most part they're now like hundred percenters. Like they we use the plan for a reason, right, is to continue investing in them and give...

...them, you know, final shots in there on the focus, and we've seen those people really come out on top, which is phenomenal. So yeah, I think if you hire right and enable right and you have fair quotas and they have a progression where they can carry a little bit more our cost model, it definitely works for us. Will it in the future? I don't revisit it then, but I think that we built a plan at last lease the next three to five years super budget, I mean like there's no variability in call. So it makes it easier on that. That and that's for sure. Is there anything you miss about the old the old way, the regular way? I look, I don't because of those distractions. I said you before. I remember, you know, somebody closed a large deal and it was ninety percent professional services were in the Sass or what are you doing with the ninety percent millions of dollars in professional services? So then all of a sudden, you know, it was like celebrated and then comp changed. We are no longer you know. It's like how it's I don't miss any of that noise. I like moving fast, so I don't I don't need those barriers around the emotional stuff of them. Am I going to get paid on that deal? I have to split it with someone who started or you're going to change a territory. I don't miss any of it. And I've also been on the side where it did like a hundred ten percent. I got paid ninety two percent or something on my pain and I said for a reason and they said, Oh yeah, they're you. You crushed, like you three, q four, but q one you were like eighty percent. So it's like the burden is carried with you forever. I'm like that that was the time of all the structure, in the set up, in the planning and so that we could kit, but we got two under tempers by the year. So like that was the building face. Yeah, but you carry the gap forever and it like multiplies and it's like how to be kidding me, like what? How motivating is that? I got a lot of our peers would say something like okay, I get it, and all of us would love to get rid of the headaches you no longer have. But they'd be like, well, you know you'll get the aggressive rep you get that, you get the CSM that wants to be a closer but doesn't want the risk of variable income in you training be a salesperson. Who I yeah, tell them to say it to my face, to I look like I'm not a right so like, I mean, but that's the thing. We're sales professionals and you know, there's so what. We've got the humanity and humility aspect to US around constitative selling and pushing the value. So what doesn't mean we're still not measuring dates and Gates and doing weekly commits and driving something to closure and making sure we're not wasting our time and telling the prospect holding them accountable right and and documenting the summary of the conversation so that they know what's gonna Happen next. It doesn't mean we don't do that stuff.

It doesn't mean we don't call people out. We're just building it for something different, like I said, this story is a lot more unique than my financial position over the next three to four years, which will be fine, but the story of Monday is going to be quite unique and powerable for what they've created, I'm sure you will we all do, is the the caricature of the money grub being ultra selfish sales guy that all he cares about is getting the deal done and he'll trash everybody everything in his or her way to do that. And I mean those preconceived notions just don't exist there any they know ever me a salesperson that sold something you didn't have. They don't exist it. We don't have that right because again, we there is this care and connection across all departments. That's what I said. Like it's we just have a different discipline, it's a different specialization to help move the business, just like marketing, just like our dy, just like products, like everything, and that's unique to us. But we care that afterwards it's going to go to an AMCSM, we care that it's going to go to an onboarding manager, we care that it's going to someday hit one of our CX members. So there is that consideration. Most of all, we care that the customer loves us. I mean that they that they have their own you know, virality experience of the product in their own organization, because not only because the product its beautiful and he's used, but because of us. We want them to remember us and lean on us and that we're partner with them. So I think we can still be aggressive without being jerks, you know, like so then I would say that the number, that's a huge misconception among many non sales people's that aggressive, money grubbing, super greedy character. Some people have it. Sure most people don't have it. You know, I think we're all motivated by success. But so when you remove the money motivation, what becomes the new leading motivator of the sales person? Is it just winning? Is it corporate goals? Is it personal pride? What is now the like overarching caricature stereotype? At Monday, you're hired, come on board, you got it all. That's it. I mean again, it starts with the hiring process, like you have to find people that are intrinsically motivated just in general, right. That's a really aggressive goals, and do whatever they can to achieve them without stepping on people. So I think a lot of that is kind of covered in the iron process. And then I also look for people that have a really fast paced because we run quickly here, and people that can really pick up the product and be be a prod consultant,...

...really have the product knowled. So they're not they're not just relationship folks. They're not just like passing it off to an see or whatever. They're taking ownership of that customer success. If we have that, then you'll see this like really nice seed that grows into our I'm a part of this company with this big vision. I'm also a part of like the sales, the touch team, where where the touch team of sales, because is a no touch engine, right. So we I'm part of the sales of the consultant group on, tied to kind of these other groups. And then I have, you know, I'm either an am or an a or I, and then I have these this kind of like micro team, right, which sometimes jamison switches around and move people, but I got this micro team with so you get there's like all these different pride fact they did, they their prideful and all these different ways. They have enough going on. They're connected to enough that we see nobody wants let anybody down. They don't want it, you know, their team teammate down if they think they're going to be short. You'll see somebody say I got you, like, I'll cover you this month and they know that that person is going to work to build the pipes that they can cover them the following. I think it's just that, yeah, they're we've hired the right people that have this sense of family, community pride, intrinsic motivation. They want to be a part of this journey. And then we've created all these things like the career path, which has these six month promotion cycles up until you're a senior. Then it's a year where they're fighting for consistency and predictability to deliver across that so they can move up. So I think that. I think that that's what's what's working. So it sounds like in lieu of like a commission, those system you put in place a more promotion, those system like the way that you make more money at Monday as you do X, Y and Z really well. That gets you a promotion, which sounds like get your higher plowing up in, but a higher ot, like one of the top two or three things that we use to evaluate the promotion stuff. So we did just put in this career path in middle of last year because I think it was a bit missing. People didn't know where they go next. So I think the top two or three things were looking for predominantly would be the qualitative stuff that we care about, which is the impact on the team, right, the cultural kind of behavioral aspects and the sales skill in process. That stuff is measured all the time. We don't just care if you're crushing it or if you're not crushing it. We look at those things weighted between the two. On the other side we're looking for someone that can do a hundred and fifteen percent over six months or deliver a hundred percent across four out of six months, right. So, like we're looking at that prectability, consistency to hit that quotum and really like within these levels, I guess they are, if you can master your current level and show some some level proficiency in the next one, then...'re you're due for the promotion at the Midg your cycle. So start of the year, midgier. And the reason that is is because it's we're not going to promote you in a failure either. Right, so you have to at least be able to demonstrate you are achieving at this level. The next one's going to be not in Potton, not not I possible for you. It's going to be hard, but you can demonstrate it. We move them up and that just happened. Literally we implemented that middle of last year. We just did the promotions. They went really well q one of this year and obviously we'll have another one after each one in q three will have another cycle. We also did a half step on the bonus. So even though the bonus plan for two thousand and twenty two, two thousand and twenty one work, we did do a half step to say if your bonus was going to be, let's say up to two months, we'll do one month because of the performance for last year. And then we cut it up based on production, you know, allocated it based on those that were carrying the most way, and it went over really, really well. People were excited that the career path got validated, even if they themselves didn't get promoted. But I think I did twenty three promotions. It's not bad. Yeah, twenty three people had some some sort of movement. How are you guys based in a headquarters in the city traditionally? I don't know. Yeah, it is very like it's an office culture and it's a good one. It's a very kind of transparent, fun, caring environment. We got lots of televisions all over the place, like lots, like too many, with data all on them so that everybody knows what they need to know and if you don't understand it, you can get information on how to read this specific chart. But our goals are all around us all the time and I think it's it's really, really important. And when somebody closes something, the screen kind of blackens and there's a celebration and the confetti goes and so every single engagement is pretty much celebrated and we all out of them. So what are you doing them? Like? I'm sure everything. Nobody's coming back to the office yet. Maybe he's right. Yeah, and like Sydney they have in Israel they have New York. We have not. We did open it up, but it's optional. We didn't launch our San Francisco off it's just yet, but we built team right before covid it. So we will go to a bit of a more flex than we were reform, meaning we used to pretty much be just an office culture. We're probably moving more to a three three days in the office, two days. You know, you'll you know, you can decide if you want to be home or in the office. So I think the company is showing that we were highly effective at home. We didn't miss a beat. I mean I still hired seventy people last year just like a plan to we didn't change anything. We use Monday for everything, so we really didn't miss anything. But yeah, I mean it's been harder. As...

...far as the celebration stuff go, we still do all of our stand ups, we still do all of our notifications. There's slack channel on one deals. Those things get posted and you'll see people putting up the emojis and writing something Nice on our gone deals or larger deals. You'll still see a nice right up and there's a video of the person talking about the deal and you'll see lots of love come, you know, all from all over the company on those deals. So yeah, I mean we're still making it work from our meetings and I just normal recognition, normal, normal efforts, just like your own frustration. I've been super interesting because I got. I think the outreach is very similar to y'all. Like one of our competitive advantages is our culture. I think we've done a good job of maintaining that in the remote environment. Maybe we could have done better, maybe not out of that, but like what you're like, biggest frustration right now something that you can't recreate out of the office that you just loved in the office is or something. It's it is just the human connection right like it's again, when you have a very loving, family oriented group, it is hard to recreate that over a zoom. I miss the do you want to go for a walk and talk about something? When I gramm a coffee, I miss learning something because I just heard somebody ask your question. Somebody answer, like you can't. You can't schedule that. We try to schedule like we have sales questions channels and office hours and things. You miss that moment and I think a lot of really good ideas happen when you leave a meeting and you're walking to you know, shoulder to shoulder with somebody. You're saying, like it's really interesting, but like what if we tried this? All of a sudden you're at the coffee machine and you sparked to totally new direction. That doesn't exist anymore. Right so I think that we're as productive as we were but less efficient and I think I think we miss that component. Everybody really misses each other. They they're doing some outdoor events and some things for the trying to get their teams together and do things. We send swag boxes all the time. The company is really kind to people. It does a lot for them. But you have the company doing things for individuals, for the families, for the and then you even have the teams, those little micro teams that I shift around with, these teams, the gone gang and the wrecking crew and all they're doing their own things for their team, and so they try to give the love and the connection that we miss in the office. That's what frustrates me, because I have people that have joined a wonderful organization that they've never even met anybody yet and they have not even seen the office, which is a really great place to work. I show them through videos this is...

...really this is who we are, like, look, this is what we got. It's amazing. We had a lot of startups that listen to our podcast. A lot of them are trying to figure out that good the market function. If they wanted to pick your brain a little bit about this, that regular pay versus variable pay, fixed pay versus. How would some they get a get ALD of me to some linkedin? Drop me a connection. I'll and with a note, because if he's just drawing men, actually will, because I do is just drop you a note with the connection. Then you know I'll accepted and and then Linkedin messengers. Fine, but that's the easiest way. All right. So I don't know what you thought. I thought that was an amazing conversation. I hope you did to Jamison. You didn't know anything back. Did you do your line? I was awesome. All right, cool with why? We really appreciate you taking some time. If y'all want to check out Jameson again, took them up on Linkedin. He's right there. You can go to Mondaycom and figure out how they do all of the stuff that they do. is also maybe you can test to sales team's prowess by selecting to do a demo. I don't know. You down that right. We don't need any more leads. Mark, heard say that. So yeah, also, well, hey to listen to. Hope you guys in God the conversation. We'll catch you next time on the sales engage the pot past. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front of more eyes and ears, please leave us a shining five star review. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book on sales engagement to get the most out of your sales engagement strategy. Make sure to check out outreach. That ioh, the leading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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