The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

Education: Transforming the Perception of Sales

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How do you explain the sales profession to a kid to make them excited to choose a sales career? Because done well, sales is one of the most influential and rewarding career choices that there is.

I recently had a chance to chat with my friend John Barrows about sales education — for both sales professionals and kids.

What we talked about:

  • Trends in sales training
  • Ways to overcome the sales stereotype
  • The importance of believing in what you sell
  • How to describe the sales career to kids

Check out John's kids book.

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast.This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, andthey just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach. Welldoes outreach learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time aftervirtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach onesaccount based, plays, manages reps and so much more using their own salesengagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as theydo. Had to outreach Doo on outreach to see what they have going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome back everyone to thesales engagement podcast. Thank you, as always, for hanging out with us. I know there's seven hundred and fifty nine million things behind for your attention, so we don't take it likely that you decided to hang out with usfor the next thirty thirty five minutes. Promise to be an incredible episode.I have my man John Barrows with me today. John, welcome to theshow. Mr Barker, are you my friends? Thanks for having me on. Man, I appreciate it's been a while. It has been a long, a long time, far too long. We were just talking before this.Like I used to bump into you at conferences and that was kind ofour relationship. We didn't need to like zoom catch up or call too muchbecause I I knew I would at least see you, you know, threetimes a year randomly at conferences. But gone are those days for for thetime being. But excited to catch up with you today and for the listenersit's going to be a special kind of father's Day. Addition, we're goingto talk about a lot of cool things, of course, you know. We'lltalk about sales tips and tricks and how we view the landscape about we'reass going to talk about what it's like to be a dad when you're aCEO and a seller. How do you articulate what the sales profession is toto your children and encourage kind of the next generation to jump in the salesso should be a fun one. But before we get there, John,for those listeners who maybe had been living in a cave for the last thelast eight years, who is John Barrows? Where'd you come from? WHAT'S THESUPERHERO ORIGIN STORE? You know, try to make a brief but it'spretty basic beginnings. You know, mom, Dad, they're married for fifty plusyears. Grew up in Bedford, Massachusetts, you know, kind oflittle town. Went to college because I didn't know what the hell what Iwanted to do. What I grew up and got marketing because I thought thatwas kind of cool and easy. Drag my way through four years of college. Basically got out and didn't honestly didn't know what I wanted to do.Just knew I didn't want to be in the profession I chose, which isa game. We'll get to that. As far as you know, salesbeing a default profession and trying to change that. But you know, gotinto sales would de Walt. It was more of a vent marketing, thoughthey positioned it as sales, but it was more event marketing, like Idrove around a dodger and pickup truck, given away free tools or construction workers, which was pretty cool. Then kind of progressed pretty quickly through there,but I didn't want to move around like they wanted me to, so Iquit that jumped into with Zerox. That's where I got my real sales education. You know, for people out there, zerox pretty much defined solution selling backin that late s early s. So they had the eight week salestraining program and, man, if you want to talk about selling a commodity, fucking sell copiers. And, by the way, I sold him withthe government to so it wasn't even you know, I didn't even have achoice. Did that for a year and a half and then started a companywith my buddy. Well, my buddy started a company doing outsourced t servicesand I jumped on board as the fifth person on board, their fourth personon board there to run sales and marketing, and it was kind of my entreeinto startups. Right. I had never kind of thought I was astartup person, even though I knew I was, even though my DNA wasthere, because both my parents were pretty much entrepreneurs. And Yeah, andthen just took off, man, and then took every training I could justto try to figure out. I was...

...twenty three years old, had noidea what I was doing. So sale and Miller, him and Tazz,all of it came across bats show, which was one of my training thatI took. That I loved it was super tactical, grew thrive up usingit fastest growing company Massachusetts for a few years. A row got us abouteighty five employees and twelve million and revenues. Sold us off to staples. Staplesbought us. I spent about a year going through that integration. Cometo find out, apparently I'm not a corporate guy. I don't have muchof a filter, as most of you will probably find note, and Ireally don't like playing politics. So after a while staples offered me another position, which they fired me, and I was looking for a job and bashowsaid Johnny would be a trainer. I was like no, I don't liketrainers right because most trainers had come across either failed sales professionals and professional presenters. I didn't want to be that. And they were like no, youhave to use these techniques to sell, so you can train, so youcan get paid. So it's like I like that. So I join them, took on some bigger accounts, brought on some bigger ones and then,make a long story short, they screwed it up and I took it over. So I've been off on my own now with jab sales now for abouteight years working with clients like sales force, linkedin slack, Google. We justpicked up a Amazon, you know, a bunch of others. So havingsome fun out there, still training, still selling. You know, Iconsider myself a sales up who happens to train, not a trainer,because I don't believe you can just be a talking head in this world.I believe you got to do it in order to really respect it and understandit. So yeah, just having some fun, man, and just tryingto kind of scale and do my thing as we go. I love it, man, such a great story and it's a lot of different things.I want to dive in today. It into grats on Amazon, by theway. That's massive. It's interesting to see some of these larger companies thatI feel like didn't haven't had a traditional but we would call like a Btob sales motion, and they seem to all be kind of building that outright now, which is super interesting. I think B Toc leads to beto be to tell you that, like yeah, the way I see that, when you in you're in this world now with your fund and stuff,you've seen a lot of product led. The money's going towards the product led. You know, I think where get the product in the hand of theconsumers right, get them use it, use it, use it, andthen build the use case for the enterprise. So you're seeing all the money gothere, but you're also seeing just the general sentiment go there. It'sthe Amazon model, like we all none of us like the betob sales experience. All of us love the be TOC experience. I mean to go onAmazon, one clicks send, it shows up on my door tomorrow, frictionalas buy, like there's something to that. So I think people are starting withthat, but then eventually they got to get to the enterprise, I. got to sell those big ticket items. So that's why a lot of thesebe TOC's are evolving to be two bees, because that's where the longterm revenue is, as opposed to the you know, death by a millioncuts, if you will, unaway. Yeah, I feel like we're we'removing towards and I agree everything there. It's kind of like product led growthand community let growth probably the biggest puzz words I hear right now talking tostartups. But it feels like we're moving towards I think it's like an assistedself serve model, right so it's like I can go and if I canfigure out your product in your service on my own and I can do it, that's great, but I do want someone who can be a strategic advisorwhen and if I need it, which is is super interesting and and forthat to happen, products going to have to talk a lot more with sales. Do you see that with sales? Seem that you you train. Youknow, we talked about sales are marketing at I meant like that got everysecond panel was on that. D you see products coming into the discussions more, even when you're you're thinking about training? No, but they should. Youknow what I mean. I think the days of predictable revenue model salesis is dying. Its segmentation of rolls, str bdra aecs and you know allthose stuff. It's great for organizations because they can scale like I can. It's easy. I can bring young kids in, beat them up,then move them to an AE and that type of thing can go from there. It's a terrible customer experience. Nobody likes to be handed off fifteen timesbefore they actually talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about or be qualified. Fifteen Times. Every time they have...

...to get a hand it off.I mean the SDR does their job, they qualify, they flipped to theAE. The AE usually ask the same stupid Fu con questions and then jumpsomeone some piece of Shit Demo, right, and then the engineer comes in totalk to him about and the engineer usually has to qualify because they've beengetting me no contact, and the customers even more frustrated, you know,and that's a typical sale cycle, right. And then when it get flipped overto the CSM, the CSM is now like doesn't even know what theybought or why they bought it, and so they have to go through theirown discovery. So I actually think they were moving back to full cycle sales, whereas scrs a's are going to roll up under marketing and operations and usea lot of the tools and ABM and all that other stuff to really targetpersonalization and everything else to hand over to inside sales, but full cycle.But I also think that inside sales is going to have to also bring inthe customer success component to their job because of what you said they're which iswe have to help people use the product, get used to it and not sellthem, but help them figure out how to use it and where itfits. And so it's going to be interesting how this thing I think we'rein a weird transition phase right now that the covid is accelerated, but Ithink that the future sales rep is is going to be customer service in alot of ways totally. I'm with you. I think we're very due for abig shake up and I think it's on the horizon. Not fully surewhat what it looks like. Could even had be like more of a usageconsumption model based on how successful people are. Yep, it'll be interesting to seehow chakes out. But I got to bring us back to the coretopic. So I want to I want to go back to so you havegraduated, you have this this marketing degree, and what I want to talk aboutthat that point is I can't tell you how many guests we have onhere that fell into sales. Right. It is the default of pro butthe pro and a con of sales is sales will always be here with openarms. Come bring me your the worried masses or there very little buried entry. You know at low buried a lot of talk and that's about it.Yeah, yeah, and so it's there and it's and, but then it'salso a con because some of maybe maybe as a profession, we're losing someof the best in the brightest to other professions that could help elevate our ourprofession even further. Talk to me about out that experience. You know,you did you want to be a seller where you maybe I had a differentview of sales people before you got into it. How did that happen?Yeah, honestly, I didn't even I didn't even think about it, youknow what I mean? Like I didn't, because I also wasn't I never sawGlen Gary, Glen Ross, I never saw a wolf of Wall Street, I never saw a boy the room, I never saw any of the kindof the sales movie. So I never really thought about sales and Ialways knew I liked, I mean early ages. I like selling things becauseI liked making money and I liked having the freedom to do stuff that Iwanted to do. You know, I was a waiter in school. Soto me that's a lot about sales. Right. You're trying to interact withpeople in the heart of you work. The more you get paid. Ineeded money to buy my own Atari when I was a kid, and I'mway older than you are, so piss off and I you know, andI ended up, you know, selling like these little stupid, you know, Pumpkins and I painted faces on them so I can make a few extrabucks. Right. So I was always commerce driven, I was always kindof but I never really considered it a profession, right. And so whenI got out, and I think that's the you say the Khn here,it's not only the con that we're losing talent, we're also polluting the poolwith bad actors, because the way I put at it, put it aswhen a kid graduates college, right and realize is that whatever their degree was, either a they don't want to do it or be they can't make enoughmoney doing it. Right. So they say, okay, well, sales, I'm pretty good with sales, I'm pretty good with people. You know, I heard you can make some money. Let me try that out right.And most of us get okay, here's a territory, here's a quote, a good luck it, very limited guidance, very limited training, anythinglike that. And you give a normal kid, so a kid who's prettytrustworthy, pretty honest, pretty good ethics,...

...that type of thing. You thatnow put them in a situation where they're making a low base salary,so if they don't sell they're not going to be able to pay their billsand if they miss their quota they're most likely going to get fired within twoto three months. You put a normal person in that scenario, they willdo some very abnormal things. They will cut corners, they will say shitthat they probably wouldn't say otherwise. They will overpromise about certain things just toget the deal done, and that that just feeds into the perception that salesas a bunch of sleeves bags and you know, Glen Gary, Gown Rossand all that stuff, right. So what's encouraging now is when I wasin school, you know, I graduated ninety eight, there was no degreesin sales, zero, right. So it wasn't even a thing. Nowthere's about seventy universities in the US at least that actually have sales as amajor or a minor. So it's starting to be this an educated profession,but it's still the default and it's still kind of a numbers game in alot of ways, and so that's why I was fortunate that I kind ofgraduated into sales in a lot of ways from my marketing degree because the walt, like I said, they the the role was sales, but it wasreally event marketing, like my job. I didn't have to sell anything.It was like the first swarm team that they called, which was, youknow we if you all seeing those dodger and pickup trucks yellow de Walt acrossthe side, like we all. I I had New England as my territoryand all I did was drive around looking for construction sites and when I founda construction site, I drive up. I'd look to see what kind oftools they were using. If they weren't using the walt, I'd give awaya bunch of free tools say hey, try these, I'll let me go. What you guys think, and I'd come back later and they be likeyeah, we love them. Might say okay, cool, go down tohome deepone by a bunch right, like I like. I had no quota, I had nothing, so it was, you know, what I had todo, event say to do. But then I graduated, after aboutsix months and being the top rep in that territory to the next level atthe wall, which was selling to Home Depot. So now I had sixor seven accounts. I had six or seven home depot accounts and they hadto buy the Waal. But my job was to take that tenzero order andturn it into a sixtyzero hundred thousand dollar order. So through cross cells andup cells and building endcaps. So it was a little bit more like sellingbecause I did have to take ten but they were already buying it right then. So I got that taste of up cell, Cross Cell Marketing. Transitionto sales ish and then I got to Xerox and Xerox was sales, buta still even with Zerox, a lot of my accounts had xerox machines right. I had a pads. Probably had like thirty percent of my territory wasgreen field. Where's the seventy percent? Where's existing accounts? And I hadto cross cell up cell. So again not like hardcore like start from scratchselling, but gave me a really strong foundation. And then when I gotinto my start up, then it was zero, like it was just Iam now scraping and calling for everything that I did. So I was preparedfor that, whereas I don't think a lot of people get through that progressionsas well as are as fortunate to get through that progression like I did andI didn't, and it wasn't a conscious thing, it was just kind ofa progression into it, and then I started to realize that I can lovethis, you know what I mean? I love that my effort is directlytied to my income and if I'm representing a product that I love, thatit's making a difference for the people that I work with on this. So, yeah, I love a lot of what you said there and it remindsme of very similar to my jurn. I was a server as well andno parts and the thing that was kind of the just fell into these randomsales rolls and, you know, found a love for what are your eyes? He's like, what's the first few steps? So we now have sephonyuniversities that offer a sales course. What's the next step to having sales beregarded as not an afterthought but a you know, just like if you wantto be a lawyer, doctor or you want to be a seller? Yeah, you know, I think I hate...

...to say this, but I thinkit's and it's the boring way, but it's the mass audience way it's youknow, to have a movie that doesn't depict sales reps is total douchebags,you know what I mean, like because when people think of sales right now, they think of either use car salesman or they think Ling, Garylyn RosswolfWall Street, boiler room, right, that's the perception. I want moremovies like pursuit of happiness, you know. I want more movies like Tommy Boy, you know what I mean, like those movies, but highlighting thefact that that is sales, right, like hard work, representing something youbelieve in, making a difference. That's what that is. And it's almostlike I was bummed when Wolf of Wall Street came out, for instance,right because I felt like we had just gotten over the Borial Room Shit,you know what I mean, like all right, like boiler room and goingGary Gown Ross, and that kind of stigmatized us for a while and Iwas like, all right, we're starting to kind of move in the rightdirection and then all of a sudden wolf of Wall Street came out. I'mlike, God, I love this movie and apparently I need to get somequailudes, but I like but God damn it, like that's what people think, right, and so I think, you know, there's this there's amacro education of like changing the perception at a way earlier age, right,whether it's when Kids Bring Your Dad to school today, bring your mom toschool to day, like bring the parent that's in sales and talk to kidsabout, you know, what a career in sales really is and what itmeans and how it's not about just, you know, stuff and stuff downpeople's throats. Is About, actually, I tell people all this all thetime, like I don't sell Shit. I literally don't sell you anything.I help you achieve your goals or solve your problems. Those are the twothings. And if you don't have that mindset in sales and get out ofsales. If you're just here to get a commission check, please leave.But if you genuinely believe that what you're selling is a makes a difference forthe right person man, then sales is probably one of the most rewarding careersthere is. So I think it's a it's a it's a macro education ofchanging the perception and stop pitgeing holding people into the perception that everybody has.You know what I mean. It's if we look at the macarick I meanI was watching something recently as far as race and that type of stuff,and there was, you know, somebody saying, like why does every blackperson in a movie have to be depicted as the drug dealer, the this, that, that and the other thing. It's like we need to actually levelup and stop it with the perceptions of people or the what are theycalled the stereotype here, know what I mean? Yeah, like the stereotypesand break that mold in race, religion, sex, sales in a lot ofways, because I think that's the that's the easy route, right,is to make a movie that just feeds into everybody's stereotype of what that thingis, and I think that's what we've been a victim of in a lotof ways. But again, not undeserved either, because there's a there isa huge part of our population, unfortunately, that doesn't do it for the rightreasons. They do just try to get a paycheck, you know whatI mean? So yeah, totally, yeah, I mean it's I wasthose stereotypes. God, I helped a friend of mine, she just graduated. I was like this and get a bedr roll at a Tech Company.World's your oyster. I don't care what you want to do. You getthat, you crush it for two years. You know, trust, for you'llhave an incredible career. Whatever you decide to do. Get a marketingCS, you can jump over to engineering if you go, take a bootcamp course to have you want, but like just do this. And she's, of course, a little, little nervous. And we were talking aboutit, you know, after after some drinks, and I basically said whereyou said. It's like you're you have to get this out of your mind, that you're selling something right. Like the way I put it was likethere's people out there that have broken ankles or they're trying to strengthen a bumankle, and you are the only person that can fix that broken ankle orstrengthen it. So like that mental shift of I'm a problem solver is isreally a big one and it sounds like one that was just a natural extensionof your journey. That's always how you kind of saw sorry yourself. Thatsounds Oh yeah, and in it's funny.

You know you. I know yousaid you're going to ask three things to take away right the end here. The one that I always think of is believing, which is cell right, because when I got fired from staples, okay, I had a little bitof a crisis of conscience there, because I'd never been fired by anylike. I was a top perform in every single job I've had. Right, and and I and I'm like hole, and it came out of it didn'tcome out of nowhere, but to me it felt like it came outof nowhere. Right. So I was panicking because I had sold it servicesfor seven years, right, and I was and I remember being like,well, Shit, and I had no plan B. I wasn't looking atany other options, like I was literally a thousand percent into the figuring thisout. And so now I'm like, Holy Shit, I need to finda job. And I'm like, wait a minute, am I in it? Sales Guy? I'm like, is that what I am? I'm like, I needn like computers, like I really don't like I can't stand Ijust want him to work. Right. Yeah, and so I was likewhat do I do? Right, and my wife, to her credit,was was the one who helped me figure this out. She goes, well, let's take a step back. She goes, let's look at every career, every job you've had, and let's time I take a step back andpeel back the onions of layers of why were you the best at that job? For whatever was right. So let's start with the walt why were youone of the best reps at the wall? And I was like, I don'tknow, the wall power tools are pretty Badass, like they're they werecool, they were really good, they're the high quality and they were theywere Badass. I loved representative walls, so it wasn't hard for me totalk about to Walt Right. And then she was like, all right,well, let's take a look at Zerox. Why we the best, one ofthe best reps at zero? So I was like, I don't know. I got in like copiers, but I genuine believe that Xerox was thebest copier in the industry. Right. I genuinely believe that. So wasn'thard for me to represent Zerox as the best for the right people thrive mycompany. Why? Why did we why we be the fastest growing company amount? Well, it's not that I loved it t I could care less aboutit, but I believe in the people and the work that we did forthe clients that we were, you know, helping, right, and so Itook a step back and I was like, well, so it's evidentto me now that it has nothing to do with what I sell. Ithas everything to do is if whether I believe in what I sell. Andthat's going to be a core takeaway at the end of this conversation is,which is look, if you do not believe in what you sell, gofind something else to do. Go find something else to sell. But sales, I genuinely believe as the transfer of enthusiasm, right, yeah, somebodytold me that earlier in my career. I believe it that much because peoplesay I'm not in sales. Bullshit. Take the I'm going to say dorkiest, in all due respect because I lived with engineers. I love engineers.Take the Dorky is most introverted engineer you've ever met in your entire life.Okay, who would be Amili fight you about being in sales? Right,be like, absolutely not. On the furthest thing from sales you could possiblyimagine. Ask Them Lat to describe to you the last time they created somethingor solved a problem and watch them light up like a Christmas tree. Ohwell, the other day I was working on this issue and this is whathappened, and I did this and I did that, and this is whatany and and you watch them like they're their energy and their enthusiasm and theirpassion come through. And if you have that prople like of so of,if you you're that person, you're that engineer, you're telling me that andI have that problem, all of a sudden I want what you got.That to me it sales. And so that's that. You got to havethat belief. And for the people out there who are listening that don't necessarilybelieve in what they sell, first and foremost, don't just quit and say, piss off, I'm going to go find something I love. But gotalk to your executives of why they started the business. Go Talk to somecustomers about the value they get from your service. Go Talk to the customersuccess team and say, Hey, can I talk to a couple of ourbest customers and I just ask them like what do they get out of thisand what is it done for their business and those type of things. Soyou can understand, like you might not love the pro I didn't love copiers. I could care less about copiers. But when I talked to the Secretaryof state and they talked to the Treasury and talked about how the efficiency thatthese copiers were able to get their paycheck, people's paychecks out in a fraction ofthe time so that they can get paid more, I was like Whoa. And why? The Xerox Copier was the better version, because the otherCanon copiers they broke down and there was...

...times where they couldn't get the checksout to people and therefore they couldn't make their payments. And it was like, Holy Shit, I get it, like we're selling an outcome. We'renot selling the product of the service, we're selling the outcome and if youcan buy, if you if you understand that, this is one of them. Like I said, I always say the sales the greatest profession in theworld when done right. It's the worst when done wrong. Yes, thatwas gold. Everyone go rebind about two minutes, lsicitles, listen and thenagain. That got were fired up. You can tell the passion in it. And so the takeaway there was, you know, believe in the productyou sell, but I'll almost read between the lines. Who has like asecond one was you did a great job at deconstructing the box that maybe youand society and employers put you in. Right, and I think I salespeoplenow we're get told like sell into the same niche, all this sort ofstuff, and there's this figment of our own imagination. We make this boxfor for ourselves. And like, I'll tell you, and you you knowthis, running your own company, you're a CEO. So you're you're selling, but you're a CEO and the skills you have as a seller, youdon't have a box. I mean this fun stuff. I'm doing this likeBC world. It's all sales. All sales is fundraising a sales. Gettinginto deals is sales. It's all sales. Are All these founders I'm talking tothat are raising fifty million dollars if they can't sell, they can't getthat random. You are all of these things at once if you're a seller, and I almost wish more sellers knew that, and that's the skills you'rebuilding are widely, widely applicable in just about any profession. I could thinkof handling rejection sales. A teacher how to handle rejection. Right. Yousell your ideas internally. Right, so so say you're going for, yousell yourself every time you interview. That's why I like my sister, Ilove her to death. Right. She's out in California. She's a socialworker. Right, Peace Corps, the whole thing. Love it to death. She vehemii for a while, like hated sales, sales. I go, Nancy, you do realize you're in sales, right, and she wasno, I'm not. She was like angry about it too. I waslike, she's like, no, I'm not. I go, well,let's let me ask you. You just got a new job recently, right. She was yeah, I go, did they hire you off your resume? And she goes, what do you mean? I go, did youjust submit your resume and they called you up and said congratulations, welcome aboard? She goes, well, no, I go, you have to gothrough an interview process, right. She goes yeah, I go, well, congratulations here in sales, and she's like well, I go, Oh, and, by the way, you're pretty good at it, because Ihired you, and she's like our right, so so, but the point isis it's yes, it's a job, yes, it's a profession, butit's also a mentality. Right, sell yourself, you sell your ideas, you sell the next day, you know, you like you have todeal with rejection. It's almost like I wish everybody. It's almost like Iwish everybody who came out of school could go into the military for a yearjust to kind of be humbled and be in a heterogeneous all of the samelevel, so that we could appreciate each other a little bit more. ButI also wish, even after that, that everybody got like, I don'tknow, a dozen steak knives, like a dozen sets to say, gives, that they had to go and sell and they couldn't sell them to theirfriends or family. They legit had to go to strangers and try to getthese things and they couldn't get a job, regardless of whatever the job was,until they sold those ten things. Because it's going to teach you humility, it's going to teach you how to figure out where the your best chancesare of getting that. It's going to figure out how to present yourself inways, it's going to figure get you figure out how to talk to peoplethat you never would have talked to before in your lives, and so allthose skills put you in such a better position as as a professional. Iheard this set a long time ago. It's probably not accurate, so don'tquote me on this one, but it was something only on a podcast.It's only going to be on here forever. You didn't yeah it, but it'sit was something like, at a certain point eighty percent of the globaltwo thousand CEOS backgrounds was in sales,...

...because sales look any other profession.If you're an accountant, you're an accountant. Okay, you have to deal withother people, but you do this thing. Okay, marketing a littlebit broader, operations a little bit broader. But guess what, in sales wegot to figure out how to deal with everybody and we have to knowenough about every role to figure out not only how to engage in really,but also how to leverage it right and how to get along with those people. Finance, we got to figure out our commissions and we also get tofigure out how to, you know, how to figure out how to structuredeals in that type of thing. So so we have to understand finance.Legal, we have to understand how contracts work so that we can get themthrough and we have to learn how to talk to lawyer so we don't pissthem off. They don't, you know, completely cut us out executives. Wehave to learn how to talk to executives so that we can get thedeals done. I mean literally, we have to learn a little bit aboutevery role in an organization and we end up being the quarterbacks of all thoseroles. And so who's better position to be the CEO of a company thana sales professional who spent their lives figuring that out right? I mean,I get concerned with engineers who start businesses and think that they're not in sales. It's like your to your point. You're not going to get that funding, kid, like unless your product is so insane it's like a slack typeof thing, where legit like crack, where people just want it and theyuse it and it's this viral skin thing. Like, unless you're that type ofa product, you gotta sell. And the problem is is that theythink. I wrote this blog posts a long time ago called the the foundersdilemma, which is a lot of founders think that you know sit. Let'stake the engineering founder, and again, you're in this world more than Iam. They come up with a product right and because it's there's they're passionateabout it, right. So what do they do? They go to theirfriends, families and full so a very friendly audience, and they present theirwhatever they created. And because they're presenting it very passionately to a familiar group, they're going to get good feedback. They're gonna be like Oh shit,and they might even say, Oh, I could use that. Yes,give me some of that, like I want that. And so all ofa sudden is like, Holy Shit, this is this stuff is awesome.Everybody wants it. Let me just go hire a VP of sales and gowrong. That VP of sales is not going to have the same passion forYour Business. They don't have the same understanding, they don't know the marketfit as well as you do. You know that type of thing, andso they offload it to somebody else to sell it for them. They removethemselves from sales, thinking sales is easy because everybody wanted it at first.Then they get pissed at the VP of sales because the VP of sales hasn'tor the the first sales up hasn't closed or hasn't sold as much. Sothen they dump sales and say yeah, I told you. Sales is fuckingsales rep suck. And so then they go marketing and they say, okay, now let's just market this because we just got to get people to knowabout it, and then that only gets them to a certain level and thenthey begrudgingly get back to sales eventually, when they're like, oh well,Shit, I apparently we have to bring more sales or it's but it's justlike this, this nightmare scenario where if you're not top down sales oriented,you're only going to get so far. And I don't get me wrong,they'll be some UNICORNS that'll tableaus, the slacks, the Linkedin's that'll just rip. You know what I mean. And if you're one of those, Godbless you. Right. But the other ninety nine percent of products companies don'tfail because because they're there's not a product market fit or anything like that.Most companies fail because they can't fucking sell period. Yeah, I agree,and even even those crack Lookal and crap companies, you know, they're incrediblecompanies. Yeah, they all eventually get sales teams, and the feedback I'veheard from almost all of the one lucky to know what we you like youlet people at all those companies. They all say, I wish we broughtin sales earlier. Yes, we grew this fast, but if we hadjust brought in sales to supplement this, it would have been even faster.And I love here in those companies that say, Oh no, we purposelydon't buy some you don't hire sales reps. like, okay, I'll give youtwo years before you like, I'm going to record that clip and I'mgoing to fire it right back at you when I look at Linkedin and seehow many people you're hired in the next year. They had the sales title, because it eventually happened. So that it all right. So there's afew more things I'm going to get to...

...and then we'll kind of wrap thisup. So I spend a lot of time thinking about like the future,where we're going. Of course, this year a lot of people did youknow there's decentralization and all this crypto stuff, AI, machine learning, and it'skind of crazy where we're going. I actually look at sales as oneof the most future proof careers you could get into. Truly, like it'sbeen happening since the dawn of time. You'll always need that transfer of trustand enthusiasm. Lawyers that's really good out here. Them could replace that.Doctors do I want and an algorithm or machine that it makes your route mistakes. Of course, like there's all this stuff. Always will be salespeople.So we need to find ways to encourage more people to pick sales as theirfirst choice. Of course you you wrote a book on this called I wantto be in sales when I grow up, with your daughter. How should webe thinking as as leaders, as a lot of leaders that listen tothis? How can we articulate and encourage more young people to get into sales? It's tough, right, I mean because it is an education thing.I mean I think it comes with doing stuff like writing books about sale,like you know. I like. The reason I wrote that book is becauseno, first of all, no kid ever says that. No Kid eversays I want to be in sales when I grow up. Right, yeah, they want to be a doctor, they want to be a lawyer,they want to be because that's what they see on TV and everything else.And and that's maybe an easy correlation, right, when you tell somebody you'rein sales, it's kind of this, especially kids. It's kind of like, well, what do you do? Do you talk to people all daylong. It's like gonna. So I think it's first of all to fightlike helping redefine what sales is and going back to it's about helping people solveproblems or achieve goals, right, and I think if you look at thatas the essence of what sales is, which is what my opinion of whatsales is. Other people have different definitions of it, but I think ifwe reframe the conversation about what sales actually is, okay, then we canstart educating and showing examples to people about I mean when I wrote my youknow, one of the things that came out and writing the book with mydaughter was like you know, she would I was trying to explain to herwhat sales was. She's like well, what is sales? And I'm like, well, think about it this way. And in the book is like this, you know, the mother and the father, right, and inlike see this butter dish right here. Well, somebody had to sell,somebody the materials to be able to make this butter dish. Okay, andthen the person who made this butter dish had to then sell it to thestore so that the store could have that butter dish so that when you andI went to the store to have something, that we could buy that butter dishso that we don't have butter all over our hands. You know whatI mean. So, like this Cup that we're drinking out of right now, somebody had to sell somebody these materials to be able to make this cupso that I could drink out of this cup. Do you like Jink drinkingout of this cup? Yeah, I like drinking out of this cup.There's what sales is about, you know what I mean. Like so Ithink it's about reframing the conversation a little bit and showing more real examples asopposed to the Glen Gary, Glenn Ross type of crap and the perception,if you will. So I think it's reframing the conversation. I think it'shaving better a better understanding now of the education process and having curriculum around it. I think the universities have an easier time because people a little bit moremature. I I don't necessarily know if it's appropriate at an early age tokind of have curriculum around sales. But think about everything that a kid doesthroughout their career, for throughout their life cycle. That is sales. GirlScout Cookies, which is what we base the book off of. They gotfund raisers for their school so that they can, the cheerleaders can go tothe nationals. Right, that's all sales. And so if we start talking aboutit in that way, that this isn't a fund raiser, this isa sales experience, you know what I mean, this is this is weare now having to learn how to sell ourselves, our product, our service, whatever it is, so we can generate money so that we can dothe stuff that we want to do. So I think that's where if wejust start talking about it in that way...

...and highlighting, Hey, Baite,by the way, everybody, this cookie sale that we're doing here this yeah, we're doing it for all these good reasons, but understand this is actuallysales, you know what I mean, and and giving them the tools tobe able to be successful, to raise the most amount of money possible sothey could go to the coolest hotel when they go to the nationals. Youknow what I mean. Like, think about that for a second. Thesegirls scout cookies. Like most girls just kind of sit there at the youknow, the front of a stop and shop here and but you know likea grocery store or something like that, and hope that the person coming inthe door will buy in the Ay you want cookies. And they kind ofthink about giving the girls the power of understanding how to say hello to somebody, how to ask a question to them so it stops them and supposed tolike pitching their stuff, how to give a sample out so they get peopleto be like, Oh my God, that tastes delicious. Right. Thinkabout the volume that would increase for the girl scouts if they educated kids thatthis was sales and how to do it that way. That, to me, is something that more people just need to put that because they're already doingit. It's just about framing it and it helping them understand what it actuallyis. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean it. Yeah, everything. I mean, I remember stop selling my apple for some Dunkaroo'sat recent yeah, just give them all those like real world examples of likehere's how it could be useful in your in your life. Awesome, man. Well, this has been a lot of fun. As we wrap up, I always ask the same question and you can go back to things wetalked about in the episode or just you know, it's your chance to inpart your your wisdom on our listeners here. If people forget everything that we justtalked about in the last thirty five minutes and only remember three things fromthis discussion, what would you want those to be? Believe in what youdo. I'm not even to say believe in what you sell. Okay,believe in what you do. If you don't, not believe, and Iwant to frame this as people say a lot of times, follow your passion. I think that's a terrible recommendation, by the way, especially two kidshad to, like a kid coming out of follow your passion. If Ifollowed my passion when I was coming out of college, I'd be smoking weedand doing paint you know, painting portraits on the side of the road andbe dirt broke like that would be my pass to me. Both exactly right. So you know, no, find your passion and then follow it.But you got to you got to figure it out. You have, especiallyin business. You you got to figure out a way to make money doingwhatever your passion is. Okay, so, but if you believe in it,man, it makes the life so much easier, you know what Imean? If you genuinely believe in what you're doing, then it still willbe hard, but it will be a lot less and it'll be a lotmore rewarding. Okay, that's one. Two is be gold driven in thesense of right down goals, and and you don't have to big, huge, you know I mean some people do massive goals. I want to bethe most, you know, biggest entertainer in the world, and you knowMorgan when I met him the first time. You want to be the number onemotivational speaker in the world, and look those are. If you wantto go that high, by all means, but be goal oriented so that thereare milestones that you hit so that when the bad times come, becausethey will, that you can go back and say, well, I'm doingthis for a reason, because if you do not set goals, then somebodyelse is dictating your path. Okay, if you're setting goals, then you'redictating the path and I don't know about you, I don't want somebody elseto dictate my path. And then the third one, I think, isjust just try to try to just get better every day. You know whatI mean? Like I live my life by the you know, the ruleof one percent. Right. She's set the barber to high, at ahigh, U attainable level. And then what you hit that don't just throwanother mountain top to climb up, but just try to do one percent betterevery day. And you're not going to achieve it every single day, butif you have that mentality of just can you look at yourself at the endof the day and say, I'm better today than I was yesterday, andif you can genuinely say that, then you're getting better. I mean myrecommendation, for instance, to everybody out there who's getting married. So Iwent to an Indian wedding this weekend, which was absolutely the coolest thing.Like, I don't know if you've ever been to when India had a party. Then do my best fended heart right and there. And my advice toevery bride and groom on that day is...

...always the same. It's always makesure that today is not the best day of your relationship. There's a lotof a lot of people think, like you know, when I get married, like this is it, like this is the pinnacle, right, andthen all of a sudden they go back and they you know, they livewith each other and they don't like each other and and they look back andglory days like glory days. Of the saddest thing I've anytime somebody talks aboutglory days, I get out of the conversation as fast as possible because thelast thing I want to hear about is how cool you were back in highschool or how awesome you used to be. To me, I'm getting better everyday. You know what I've the reason I married my wife was notbecause we were perfect, but I saw us getting better and I saw USlearning from each other, and you know what I mean. So it's thesame thing with your career, your relationships or anything like that. Just makesure you're moving in a positive direction and you're not and you're not saying neutralor getting negative right. So if you have that mentality, then you mightbe able to do some really cool shit in your life. Boom, lovewhat you do. Be Gold driven, get one percent better every day.I love it. That last one is is so huge and I agree withthis. You know, no looking back at the glory days, and Ithink one of the greatest things people can say it's like the old you've changed. Man. I'm like, thank God, thank God, you know what Imean, like thanks, it was because I was a piece of shit, back down or something. Anything I got wasn't. But you know whatAnyan like like if you have but you that's what we're doing. Yeah,exactly. I mean, look your core values. I think, I thinkhopefully, to you, there's some core stuff that shouldn't change about you.Yeah, man, I mean, I'll give you an example. Like Iwas a beer drinking, ripped jeans wearing dive bar guy for the majority ofmy life, okay, and I thought like the club scene was all forWeirdos and shit like that. And then all of a sudden, one dayI went to a club, did some stuff and all of a sudden myeyes went wing, you know what I mean. And and now all ofa sudden I'm at every one of those clubs having a blast and enjoying,you know, it at a level that I never thought I would expect.Right and people who knew me back then in those ripped jeans, beer drinkingbudwis or days like, if they meet me today, they'll be like whatthe fuck, like what happened to you and I'll be like I evolved.I took my perceptions of what certain things were and set them aside and on, you know, and sometimes we need a little help to do that.But once you do and you open up your eyes to that possibility of maybethat's not as Douchey as I think it is. Let me get give ita shot. You'd be amazed at some of the cool shit you can beexposed too. So I think, yeah, you should change, but you shouldevolved. I think evolved more. To me. I rather somebody say, Maw, while you've evolved, as opposed to you've change, right,because I don't want to change who I am fundamentally, but I definitely wantto evolved as a human totally. Yeah, I love it, man, butwe will end and there. Thank you. That was a ton offun. We probably could riff for another hour so, but do you appreciatethe time? I know you're a busy, busy guy, and for all thoselistening, thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that as muchas I did and that will see you next episode. Go make sure youcheck out all the coolest stuff John and his team are doing you've got abunch of on demand content. Yeah, you just go to our website,J Barrowscom. You go training for individuals. We got this whole new on demandplatform. It's we're actually creating now a membership, so it's not justlike videos and stuff. We're doing AMA's in there. We're getting real realbuilding out that community. But we want to make this kind of the theyou know, masterclass or sales or with a lot of different content in there, but also be very interactive with it as well. And then for anybodyout there if they're looking for any type of free consulting, just hit meup on instagram. Is John MS and Michael Barrows. That's where I'm doingmost of my won to one engagements with people. So if you have anyquestions that I could answer, just about business life, sales, anything likethat, just hit me up on instagram. I happy to jump in into aconversation with there any time you need. I love it amazing. Make sureyou take John up on that and we will see you next episode.This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get infront of more eyes and ears, please...

...leave us a shining five star review. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book onsales engagement to get the most out of your sales engagement strategy, make sureto check out outreach. That ioh, the leading sales engagement platform. Seeyou on the next episode.

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