The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

Education: Transforming the Perception of Sales


How do you explain the sales profession to a kid to make them excited to choose a sales career? Because done well, sales is one of the most influential and rewarding career choices that there is.

I recently had a chance to chat with my friend John Barrows about sales education — for both sales professionals and kids.

What we talked about:

  • Trends in sales training
  • Ways to overcome the sales stereotype
  • The importance of believing in what you sell
  • How to describe the sales career to kids

Check out John's kids book.

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Welcome to the sales engagement, apodcast, this podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagementplatform and they just launched out reach on our reach. The place to learnhow out reach well does not reach learn how the team follows up with every leadin record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can alsosee how out rechin account based plays, manages reps and so much more usingtheir own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulledfrom out reach processes and customer base when you're done you'll be able todo it as good as they do had to outreach on io on out reach to see whatthey have going on now, let's get into today's episode, hello and welcome back everyone to thesales engagement podcast. Thank you as always for hanging out with us. I knowthere's seven hundred and fifty nine million things proving for yourattention, so we don't take it like we that you decided to hang out with usfor the next thirty thirty five minutes promise to be an incredible episode. Ihave my man, John Barrows, with me today. John Welcome to the show Mir,Barker ow argue my friends thanks for having on and appreciate, it's been awhile. It has been a long a long time. Far too long. We were just talkingbefore this, like I used to bump into you at a conferences and that was kindof our relationship. We didn't need to like soon catch up or call too much,because I e I knew I would at least see you. You know three times a yearrandomly had had conferences but goner those days for for the time being, butexcited to catch up with you today and for the listeners it's going to be aspecial kind of father's Day. Addition we're going to talk about a lot of coolthings. Of course you know we'll talk about sales, Tis and tricks and how wedo the landscape, but roll going to talk about what it's like to be a deadwhen you're a CEO and a seller. How do you articulate what the salesprofession is to to your children and encourage kind of the next generationto jump in the sales? So should be a fun one, but before we get there Johnfor those listeners who maybe had been living in a cave for the last last eight years, who is John Barrels?Where d you come from? What's the super, her origin story, you know try to makeit brief, but it's pretty basic beginnings. You know, mom dad they'remarried for fifty plus years grew up in Bedford Massachusetts. You know kind oflittle town went to college because I didn't know what the hell that I wantedto do when I grew up and got marketing, because I thought that was kind of cooland easy drag. My Way through four years of college, basically got out andand didn't honestly didn't know what I wanted to do just knew. I didn't wantto be in the profession I chose, which is a and we'll get to that. As far asyou know, sales being a default profession and trying to change that.But you know God into sales, would dwell. It was more of event marketingthough they positioned it as sales, but it was more of an marketing like Idrove around a dodge, ran pickup truck, giving away free tools, a constructionworkers which is pretty cool, then kind of progress pretty quickly throughthere, but I didn't want to move around like they wanted me to so I quit thatjumped into a xerox. That's where I got my real sales education. You know forpeople out there Xerox pretty much defined solution selling back in thatlate early S, so they had a eight weeks, sales training program and man. If youwant to talk about selling a commodity, fucking, Sol copiers, and by the way Isold him, the government too, so it wasn't. Even you know I didn't evenhave a choice, did that for a year and a half and then started the companywith my buddy. Well, my buddy started a company doing outsource services, and Ijumped on board as the fifth person on board their fourth person on boardthere to run sales and marketing, and it was kind of my entree into startupsright. I never kind of thought I was a start up person, even though I knew Iwas even though my DNA was there, because both my parents were prettymuch entrepreneurs and yeah and then just took off man andand took every training. I could just to try to figure out. I was twenty. Theyears old had no idea what I was doing... Salem Miller, Heiman Taz, all of itcame across Basho, which was one of my training that I took that I loved itwas super tactical grew thrive up using it fastest gone company inMassachusetts. For a few years a row got us about. Eighty five employees andtwelve million in revenues sold us off to staples staples bought us. I spentabout a year going through that integration come to find out.Apparently I'm not a corporate guy. I don't know how much of a filter, asmost of you will probably find out, and I really don't like playing politics.So after a while saples offered me another position which they fired meand I was looking for a job and Basho said John- would be a trainer was likeno, I don't like trainers right because most trainers had come across, thoughtheir fail sales professionals, a professional presenters. I didn't wantto be that and they were like now you have to use these techniques to sell,so you can train so you can get paid. So it's like I like that. So I joinedthem took on some bigger counts, brought on some bigger ones and thenmake a long story short. They screw it up and I took it over. So I've been offof my own now with JB sales. Now for about eight years, working with clientslike sales forest linked in slag, Google, we just picked up Amazon, youknow a bunch of others, so having some fun out there still training, stillselling. You know I consider myself a sales rap who happens to train, not atrainer, because I don't believe you can just be a talking head in thisworld. I believe you got to do it in order to really respect it andunderstand it so yeah just having so fun man and just trying to kind ofscale and do my thing as we go. I love it man such a a great story and a lot of different things. I want todive into that. It integrates on Amazon by the way. That's massive. It'sinteresting to see some of these larger companies that I feel like didn'thaven't had a traditional, but we would call like a B tob sales motion and theyseem to all be kind of building that out right now, which is superinteresting. I think pts leads to be to be to tell you the like it the way Isee it when in you're in this world. Now, with your fund and stuff you'veseen a lot of product led the money's going towards the product led, you knowwhere get the product in the hands of the consumers right, get them to use ituse it use it and then build the use case for the enterprise so you're,seeing all the money go there, but you're also seeing just the generalsentiment go there, it's the Amazon model like we all. None of us, like the Beta salesexperience. All of us love the B TC experience I mean to go on Amazon. OneClick send it shows up on my door tomorrow, frictionless by like there'ssomething to that. So I think people are starting with that, but theneventually they got to get to the enterprise that got to sell those bigticket items. So that's why a lot of these B DC are evolving to be to bees,because that's where the long term revenue is as opposed to the you know,death by a million cuts. If you will jonae yeah, I feel like we're we'removing towards, and I agree everything there. It's kind of like producedgrowth and community, let girls, probably the biggest buzz words. I Iher right now talking to start ups, but it feels like we're moving towards. I think it's like an assisted selfserved model right, so it's like I can go and if I can figure out your productin your service on my own- and I can do it that's great, but I do want someonewho can be a strategic advisor when and if I need it, which is, is superinteresting and for that to happen, products going to have to talk a lotmore with sales. Do you see that with sale team that you you train, you knowwe talked about sales of marketing alignment like that got. Every secondpanel was on that. Do you see products coming into thediscussions more, even when you're you're thinking about training? No, butthey should. You know I mean I think the days of predictable revenue modelsales is dying. It's segmentation of roles, str, B, D, R, a C S N. You knowall those stuff it's great for organizations because they can scalelike I can it's easy. I can bring young kids in, beat them up, then move themto an AE and that type thing and go from there. It's a terrible customerexperience. Nobody likes to be handed off fifteen times before they actuallytalk to somebody who knows what they're...

...talking about or be qualified fifteentimes every time they have to get handed off. I mean the str does theirjob, they qualify, they flip to Tae. The AE usually asked the same, stupid,fucking questions and then jump someone, some piece of Shit Dem, all right andthen the engineer comes in to talk to him about it in the engineer usuallyhas to qualify because they've been given no contact and the customers evenmore frustrated. You know and that's a typical sale cycle right and then, whenit gets flipped over to the C sm. The C SM is now like, doesn't even know whatthey bought or why they bought it, and so they have to go through their owndiscoveries. So I actually think that we're moving back to full cycle sales,whereas straes are going to roll up under marketing and operations and usea lot of the tools and abmarsch to really target personalization andeverything else to hand over to inside sales but full cycle. But I also thinkthat inside sales is going to have to also bring in the customer successcomponent to their job. Because of what you said there, which is we have tohelp people use the product, get used to it and not sell them, but help themfigure out how to use it and where it fits. And so it's going to beinteresting. How this thing, I think, we're in a weird transition phase rightnow that the coved is accelerated. But I think the future sales rap is goingto be customer service in a lot of weeks. Tarter, I'm with you in R we'revery due for a big shake up, but I think it's on the horizon not fullysure what what it looks like could even at be like more of a usage consumptionmodel based on how successful people are it'll, be interesting to see how itshakes out, but I got to bring us back to the court topic so I want to. I wantto go back to so. You have graduated. You have thisthis marketing degree and when I want to talk about that, that point is, Ican't tell you how many guests we have on here that fell into jails right. Itis the default of pro o. The PRO and a con of sales is sales will always behere with open arms. Come bring me your the worried, masses, orevery bar entry.You Know I love Barn, a lot of talk and that's about it, yeah yeah, and so it'sfair and it's and but then it's also a con, because some of maybe maybe as aprofession, were losing some of the best in the brightest to otherprofessions. That could help elevate. Our our profession evenfurther talk to me about that experience you know, did you want to bea seller where you maybe had a different view of sales people beforeyou got into it? How did that happen? Ah, honestly, I didn't, even I didn'teven think about it. You know what I mean like I didn't, because I alsowasn't. I never saw Glen Garry Glenross. I never saw a woful Wall Street. Inever saw a boy of the room. I never saw any of the kind of the sales movie,so I never really thought about sales and I always knew I liked. I mean earlyages, I like selling things, because I liked making money and I liked havingthe freedom to do stuff that I wanted to do. You know I was a waiter inschool. So to me, that's a lot about sales right, you're trying to interactwith people in the harder you work, the more you get paid. I needed money to buy my own Atari whenI was a kid and I'm way older than you are so pissed off, and you know, and Iended up you know, selling like these little stupid. You Know Pumpkins and Ipainted faces on them, so I can make a few extra bucks right. So I was alwayscommerce driven, I was always kind of, but I never really considered it aprofession right, and so, when I got out- and I think that's the you say thecan here- it's not only the con that we're losing talent, we're alsopolluting the pool with bad actors, because the way I put at it put it iswhen a kid graduates college right and realizes that whatever their degree waseither a they don't want to do it or be they can't make enough money doing itright. So they say: okay, well, sales, I'm pretty good with sales, I'm prettygood with people. You know I heard you can make some money. Let me try thatout right and most of us get okay, here's your territory, hers! I quote agood luck, a very limited guidance! Very Limited training anything likethat and you give a normal kid. So, a...

...kid who's, pretty trustworthy, prettyhonest, pretty good ethics. That type of thing you that now put them in asituation where they're making a low bay salary. So if they don't sell,they're, not going to be able to pay their bills and if they miss theirquota, their most likely going to get fired within two to three months. Youput a normal person. In that scenario, they will do some very abnormal things.They will cut corners. They will say shit that they probably wouldn't say.Otherwise they will overpromise about certain things just to get the dealdone and that that just feeds into the perception that sails is a bunch ofsleeves bags and you know glenarn Ross and all that stuff right. So what'sencouraging now is when I was in school. You know I graduated I ninety eightthere was no degrees in sales zero right, so it wasn't even a thing nowthere's about seventy universities in the US at least that actually havesales as a major or a minor. So it's starting to be this. An educatedprofession, but it's still the default and it's still kind of a numbers gamein a lot of ways, and so that's why I was fortunate that I kind of graduatedinto sales in a lot of ways from my marketing degree, because the walt,like I said they, the role was sales, but it was really event marketing. Likemy job, I didn't have to sell anything. It was like the first swarm team thatthey called, which was you know if you all sing those dodge ran pickup trucksyellow deal across the side like we all. I had New England as my territory andall I did was drive around looking for school construction sites and when Ifound a construction site, I drive up I'd, look to see what kind of toolsthey were using if they weren't using to walt I'd, give away a bunch of freetools. Say: Hey try these I'll. Let me go what you guys thinking I'd come backlater and they'd be like yeah, we love them. I'd, say: Okay, COOL! Go down tohome, deep on by a bunch right like like. I had no quota. I had nothing soit was. You know what I had to do. Events I hed to do, but then Igraduated, after about six months and being the top rep in that territory tothe next level at De Wall, which was selling to Home Depot. So now I had sixor seven accounts. I had six or seven home depot accounts and they had to buyDwall, but my job was to take that ten thousand dollar order and turn it intoa sixty thousand hundred thousand dollar order, so through cross sailsand up sells and building in caps. So it was a little bit more like selling,because I did have to take ten, but they were already buying it right then.So I got that taste of up sell, cross, sell marketing transition to sale, ishand then I got to Xerox and Xerox was sales, but I still even with Xerox. Alot of my accounts had xerox machines. Right I had a pad probably had likethirty percent of my territory was Greenfield, whereas the seventy percentwere existing accounts and I had to cross all up, sell so again, not likehard core like start from scratch selling, but gave me a really strongfoundation. And then, when I got into my start up, then it was zero like itwas just. I am now scraping and calling for everything that I did so I wasprepared for that, whereas I don't think a lot of people get through thatprogression as well as are as fortunate to get through that progression like Idid, and I didn't and it wasn't a conscious thing. It was just kind of aprogression into it, and then I started to realize that I fuckin love this. Youknow what I mean. I love that my effort is directly tied to my income and, ifI'm representing a product that I love, that it's making a difference for thepeople that I work with on this so yeah to a lot of what you said there,and it reminds me of very similar to Mater. I was a server as well did noart part anything that was kind of the just fell into these random sales roles,and you know, found a love for what, in your eyes, is like. What's the firstfew steps, so we now have seventy universities that offer a sales course.What's the next step to having sales be regarded as not an after that, but a you know just like. If you want to be alawyer doctor or you want to be a seller yeah,... know, I think I hate to say this,but I think it's and it's the boring way, but it's the mass audience way.It's you know to have a movie that doesn't topick sales. Reps is totalDucha. You know what I mean like, because when people think of salesright now, they think of either use car salesman or they think Langaran Ross,Wolf, Wall Street and boiler room right. That's the perception! I want moremovies like pursue a happiness. You know I want more movies, like Tommy Boy,you know what I mean like those movies but highlighting the fact that that is,sales right like hard work representing something you believe in making adifference. That's what that is, and it's almost like. I was bummed when Wolf Wall Street cameout, for instance right because I felt like we had just gotten over the boilerroom shit. You know what I mean like all right like boiler, room andGlengarloch, and that kind of stigmatized us for a while, and I waslike all right- we're starting to kind of move in the right direction and thenall of a sudden, Wolfe Wall Street came out. I'm like God. I love this movieand apparently I gan get so Quelon, but I like, but God damn it like. That'swhat people think right, and so I think you know there's this there's a macroeducation of like changing the perception at a way earlier age, right,whether it's when Kids Bring Your Dad to school today. Bring your mom toschool today like bring the parent, that's in sales and talk to kids aboutyou know what a career in sales really is and what it means and how it's notabout. Just you know, stuff and stuff down people's throats is about.Actually I tell people all this all the time like I don't sell shit, Iliterally don't sell you anything. I help you achieve your goals or solveyour problems. Those are the two things and if you don't have that mind, set insales and get out of sales, if you're just here, to get a commission check,please leave, but if you genuinely believe that what you're selling is amakes, a difference for the right person, man them sales is probably oneof the most rewarding careers. There is a so I think it's a macro education ofchanging the perception and stop pidging holding people into theperception that everybody has. You know what I mean if we look at the mackriemean I was watching something recently as far as race and that type of stuff-and there was you know somebody saying like: Why does every black person in amovie have to be depicted as the drug dealer the this, the that and the otherthing is like? We need to actually level up and stop it with the theperceptions of people or or the what ar they called the stereotype Terno. WhatI mean yeah like the stereotypes and break that mold in race, religion, sexsales in a lot of ways, because I think that's the that's the easy route rightis to make a movie that just feeds into everybody's stereotype, of what thatthing is, and I think that's what we've been a victim of in a lot of ways, butagain not undeserved either, because there's like there is a huge part ofour population. Unfortunately, that doesn't do it for the right reasons.They do just try to get a pay check. You know what I mean so yeah, totallyyeah, I mean it's. I was those stereotypes go deep. I helped a friendof mine. She just graduated. I was like listen get a DA role at a tech companyworld, your oyster. I don't care what you want to do you get that you crashit for two years. You know just for you'll have an incredible career.Whatever you decide to do, get marketing CS, you can jump over aengineering if you go take a boot can course do whatever you want, but likejust do this and she of course, a little a little nervous and we weretalking about it. You know, after after some drinks- and I basically said whenyou said it's like your- you have to get this out of your mind that you'reselling something right like the way I put it was like there's people outthere that have broken ankles or they're trying to strengthen a bomakle,and you are the only person that can fix that broken ankle or strengthen it.So like that mental shift of I'm a problem, solver is, is really a big oneand it sounds like one that was just a natural extension of your journey.That's always how you kind of sawsorry...

...yourself. It sounds so yeah and andit's funny you know, I know you said you're going to ask three things totake away right. The end here, the one that I always think of is believe inwhat you sell right, because when I got fired from stables, okay, I had alittle bit of a crisis, a conscience there, because I had never been firedby any like I was a top perform in every single job. I've had right andand and I'm like hold and it came out of it didn't come out of nowhere. Butto me it felt like it came out of nowhere right, and so I was panickingbecause I'd sold it services for seven years right and I was- and I rememberbeing like well shit and I had no plan B. I wasn't looking at any otheroptions like I was literally a thousand percent into the figuring this out, andso now I'm like Holy Shit. I need to find a job and I was like wait a minute.Am I an IT sales guy I'm like? Is that what I am I'm like? I don't even likecomputers, like I really don't like I I can't stand. I just want them to workright, yeah, and so I was like what do I do right and my wife to her creditwas was the one who help me figure this out. She goes well, let's take a stepback. She goes. Let's look at every career, every job you've had and let'stin, of take a step back and peel back the onions layers of. Why were you thebest at that job, for whatever it was right? So, let's start with dwell. Whywere you one of the best reps at the wall, and I was like I don't know thewall. Portos are pretty bad ass like they were, they were cool. They werereally good, they were the high quality and they were. They were bad ass Iloved representing to well. So it wasn't hard for me to talk about towalt right and then she was all all right. Well, let's take a look at zero.Why we the best one of the best rapid, her ox, and I was like- I don't know- Igot it like copers, but I genuine believe that Xerox was the best copy erin the industry right. I genuinely believe that, so it wasn't hard for meto represent the Xerox as the best for the right people thrive. My Company,why? Why did we why we do the fastest growing company Mont? Well, it's notthat I loved it. I could care less about it, but I believe in the people,in the work that we did for the clients that we were, you know helping right,and so I took a step back and I was like well so it's evident to me nowthat it has nothing to do with what I sell. It has everything to do ifwhether I believe in what I sell and that's going to be a core take away atthe end of this conversation is, which is look if you do not believe in whatyou sell go, find something else to do. Go find something else to sell, butsales, I genuinely believe, is in the transfer of enthusiasm right. Somebodytold me that early in my career, I believe it that much because people sayI'm not in sales bullshit take the I'm going to say Dorkis in all do respect,because I lived with engineers. I love engineers. Take the Dorkis mostintroverted engineer: You've ever met in your entire life. Okay, who wouldbeamily fight you about being in sales right, be like absolutely not I'm thefurthest thing from sales. You could possibly imagine ask them la todescribe to you the last time they created something or solved a problemand watch them light up like a Christmas tree, oh well, the other day.I was working on this issue and this is what happened, and I did this and I didthat- and this is what and and and you watch them like, their energy and theirenthusiasm and their passion come through and if you have that pro lectof so, if you're, that person you're that engineer you're telling me that,and I have that problem all of a sudden. I want what you got that to me at sales, and so that's thatyou got to have that belief and for the people out there who are listening,that don't necessarily believe in what they sell do. First and foremost, don'tjust quit and say: Piss off, I'm going to go, find something I love but gotalk to your executives of why they started the business. Go Talk to somecustomers about the value they get from your service. Go Talk to the customer,Success Team and say: Hey. Can I talk to a couple of our best customers andin just ask them like what do they get out of this and what has it done fortheir business and those type of things? So you can understand, like you mightnot love the PA. I didn't love copiers. I could care less about copiers, butwhen I talked to Secretary of state- and I talked to the Treasury and talkedabout how the efficiency that these copiers were able to get their paycheck people's paychecks out in a fraction of the time so that they canget paid more. I was like Whoa and why the Xerox Copyer was the better version,because the other Canon copiers they...

...broke down and there was times wherethey couldn't get the checks out to people and therefore they couldn't maketheir payments and it was like Holy Shit. I get it like we're selling anoutcome, we're not selling the product of the service, we're selling theoutcome and if you can buy, if you, if you understand that this is one of themlike I said, I always say that sales, the greatest profession in the worldwhen done right, it's the worst when done wrong. Yes, that was gold. Everyone go rewindabout two minutes, less it! Listen to that again that got we fired out. Youcan tell the passion in it and so the the takeaway there was, you know,believe in the product you shall, but I'll almost read between the lines toas like a second one was you did a great job at de Constructing the boxthat maybe you and society and employers put you in right and I think,as salespeople, you know we're getting told like sell into the same niche allthis sort of stuff and there's this figment of our own imagination. We makethis box for ourselves and, like I'll, tell you- and you know this runningyour own company you're, a C A s you're you're selling, but you're a CEO andthe skills you have as a seller. You don't have a box. I mean this fun stuff,I'm doing this like C world. It's all sales fall. Sales is fund, raising asales getting into deals as sales. It's all sales, all these founders, I'mtalking to that, are raising fifty million dollars. If they can't sell,they can't get that rod done. You are all of these things at once. If you'rea seller- and I almost wish more sellers- knew that and that that theskills your building are widely widely applicable and just about anyprofession, I could think of handling rejection sales, a teach you how tohandle rejection right. You sell your ideas internally right so so say,you're going for you sell yourself every time you interview. That's why I,like my sister, I love her to death right she's out in California, she's asocial worker right peace corps, the whole thing love Er to death. Shevehemently for a while, like hated sales sales. I go nancy, do realizeyou're in sales right and she was no I'm not. She was like angry about ittoo. I was like she's like no, I'm not I go well. Let's. Let me ask you, youjust got a new job recently right she was yeah, I go. Did they hire you offyour resume and she goes w? What do you mean I go? Did you just submit yourresume and they call you up and said? Congratulations welcome aboard. Shegoes well. No, I go. You have to go through an interview process right, shegoes yeah. I go. Will congratulations here in sales and she's like I go, Ohand by the way, you're pretty good at it, because I hired you and she's likeall right. So so, but the point is, is it's? Yes, it's a job. Yes, it's aprofession, but it's also a mentality. Right. I Sell Yourself, you sell yourideas, you sell the next, you know you so like you have to deal with rejection.It's almost like. I wish everybody it's almost like. I wish everybody who cameout of school could go into the military for a year, just to kind of behumbled and be in in a heterogenious all at the same level, so that we couldappreciate each other a little bit more. But I also wish, even after that, thateverybody got like, I don't know, a dozen steak knives like a dozen sets ofSake, ties that they had to go and sell and they couldn't sound to theirfriends or family. They legit had to go to strangers and try to get thesethings and they couldn't get a job, regardless of whatever the job wasuntil they sold those ten things. Because it's going to teach youhumility, it's going to teach you how to figure out where the your bestchances are of getting that it's going to figure out how to present yourselfin ways it's going to figure. If you figure out how to talk to people thatyou never would have talked to before in your lives, and so all those skillsput you in such a better position and as a professional. I heard this that along time ago. It's probably not accurate. So don't call me on this one,but it was something one on a podcast. It's only going to be on here. For everyou know yeah, but it's it was something like at a certain point.Eighty percent of the global two thousand CEOS backgrounds was in sales...

...because sales look any other professionif you're an accountant, you're, an accountant. Okay, you have to deal withother people, but you do this thing: Okay, marketing! A little bit broaderoperations a little bit broader, but guess what in sales, we got to figureout how to deal with everybody, and we have to know enough about every role tofigure out, not only how to engage and really, but also how to leverage itright and how to get along with those people finance. We got to figure outour commissions and we also get to figure out how to you know how tofigure out how to structure deals and that type of thing. So so we have tounderstand finance legal. We have to understand how contracts work so thatwe can get through through and we have to learn how to talk to lawyers. So wedon't piss them off. They don't. You know completely cut us out executives.We have to learn how to talk to executive so that we can get the dealsdone. I mean literally, we have to learn a little bit about every role inan organization and we end up being the quarterbacks of all those roles and sowho's better position to be the CEO of a company than a sales professional whospent their lives figuring. That out right, I mean I get concerned withengineers who start businesses and think that they're not in sales. It'slike you're to your point, you're not going to get that funding kid likeunless your product is so insane. It's like a slack type of thing where legitlike crack, where people just want it and they use it, and it's this viralfucking thing like unless you're that type of a product you got to sell andthe problem is that they think I wrote this blog post a long time ago calledthe the founders dilemma, which is a lot of founders. Think that you know it.Let's take the engineering founder in again you're in this world. More than Iam, they come up with the product right and because it's theirs they'repassionate about it right. So what do they do? They go to their friends,families and full, so a very friendly audience and they present theirwhatever they created and because they're presenting it very passionatelyto a familiar group, they're going to get good feedback. They're gonna belike Oh shit and they might even say Oh, I can use that. Yes give me some ofthat like I want that, and so all of a sudden, it's like Holy Shit. This isthis stuff is Awesomem, everybody wants it. Let me just go: Hire A psails andgo wrong that VP sales is not going tohave the same passion for Your Business. They don't have the same understanding.They don't know the market fit as well as you do. You know that type of thing,and so they off loaded to somebody else to sell it for them. They removethemselves from sales thinking. Sales is easy because everybody wanted it atfirst then they get pissed at the VP sales, because the V psses hasn't orthe first sales or hasn't closed or hasn't sold as much so then they dumpsales and say yeah, I told you, sales is fucking sales rap suck, and so thenthey go marketing and they say: okay. Now, let's just market this, because wejust got to get people to know about it and then that only gets them to acertain level and then they be grudgingly get back to sales.Eventually, when they're like oh well shit, apparently we have to bring moresalters. But it's just like this. This nightmare scenario, where, if you'renot top down sales, oriented you're, only going to get so far, and I don'tget me wrong- there'll be some UNICORNS that'll tableaus, the slacks, theLinin's that'll just rip. You know what I mean and if you're one of those Godbless you right, but the other. Ninety nine percent of products companiesdon't fail because there there's not a product market fit or anything likethat. Most companies fail because they can't can sell Peri yeah, I agree, andeven even though crack will call them. Crap companies o their incrediblecompanies yea. They all eventually get sales teams and the feedback I've heardfrom almost all of the one like you to know you like you like people at allthose companies, they all say. I wish we brought in sales earlier. Yes, wegrew this fast, but if we had just brought in sales to supplement this, itwould have been even faster, and I love hearing those companies that say: Oh No,we purposely don't buy. You don't hire sales raps like okay, I'll, give youtwo years before you do like I'm going to record that clip and I'm going tofire it right back at you. When I look at linked in and see how many peopleyou're hiring an the next year, they have the sales title because iteventually happen so to it all right.

So there's a few more things I m goingto get you and then we'll kind of wrap this up. So I spend a lot of timethinking about like the future, where we're going of course, this year, a lotof people did. You know, there's decentralization and all this cryptostuff, ai machine learning and a well, it's kind of crazy. Where we're going.I actually look. Exhales is one of temos future proof careers. You couldget into truly like it's been happening since the dawn of time. You'll alwaysneed that transfer of trust and enthusiasm. Lawyers. That's a reallygood algorithm- could replace that doctors do I want and an algorithm or amachine, and it makes you ral mistakes. Of course, like there's. All this stuffalways will be sales people, so we need to find ways to encourage more peopleto pick sales as their first choice. Of course, you wrote a book on this called.I want to be in sales when I grow up with your daughter. How should we bethinking as as leaders as a lot of leaders that listen to this? How can wearticulate and encourage more young people to get into sales? It's toughright. I mean, because it is an education thing I mean. I think itcomes with doing stuff, like writing books aboutsale. Like you know, like the reason I wrote, that book is because no first ofall, no kid ever says that no kid ever says I want to be in sales. When I growup right yeah, they want to be adopted, they want to be a lawyer. They want tobe because that's what they see on TV and everything else, and and that'smaybe an easy correlation right. When you tell somebody you're in sales, it'skind of this, especially kids, it's kind of like well. What do you do? Doyou talk to people all day long? It's like so, I think it's first of all thefit like helping redefine what sales is and going back to it's about helpingpeople solve problems or achieve goals right, and I think, if you look at thatas the essence of what sales is, which is what my opinion of what sales is.Other people have different definitions of it, but I think if we reframe theconversation about what sales actually is, okay, then we can start educatingand showing examples to people about. I mean when I wrote my you know one ofthe things that came out and writing the book. With my daughter I was likeyou know she went at. I was trying to explain to her what sales was she's like. Well, what is sales- andI'm like well think about it this way and in the book is like this. You knowthe mother and the Father Right and and like see this butter dish right here.Well, somebody had to sell somebody the materials to be able to make thisbutter dish. Okay and then the person who made this butter dish had to thensell it to the store so that the store could have that butter dish so thatwhen you and I went to the store to have something that we could buy thatbutter dish so that we don't have butter all over our hands. You knowwhat I mean so like this Cup that we're drinking out of right. Now somebody hadto sell somebody these materials to be able to make this cup so that I coulddrink out of this cup. Do you like Jane drinking out of this Cup yeah, I likedrinking out of this cup, there's what sales is about. You know what I meanlike, so I think it's about reframing the conversation a little bit andShowinga more real examples, as opposed to the Glen Gargan Ross type of crapand the perception, if you will so I think it's reframing the conversation.I think it's having better a better understanding now of the educationprocess and having curriculum around it. I think the the universities have aneasier time because people a little bit more mature- and I don't necessarilyknow if it's appropriate at at an early age, to kind of have curriculum aroundsales, but think about everything that a kid does throughout their careerthroughout their life cycle. That is, sales girl, scol cookies, which is whatwe based the book off of. They got fund raisers for their school so that theycan the cheer leaders can go to the nationals right, that's all sales, andso, if we start talking about it in that way that this isn't a fundraiser,this is a sales experience. You know what I mean this is this is we are nowhaving to learn how to sell ourselves our product, our service, whatever itis, so we can generate money so that we can do the stuff that we want to do so.I think that's where if we just start...

...talking about it in that way andhighlighting hey bat by the way, everybody this cookie sale that we'redoing here, this yeah they we're doing it for all these good reasons, butunderstand this is actually sales. You know what I mean and and giving themthe tools to be able to be successful, to raise the most amount of moneypossible, so they could go to the coolest the hotel when they go to thenationals. You know what I mean like think about that for a second, these,these girls SCO cookies, like most girls, just kind of sit there at theyou know the front of a stopping shop here, but you know like a grocery storeor something like that and hope that the person coming in the door will buyand like hey, you want tuckies and they kind of think about giving the girlsthe power of understanding, how to say hello to somebody how to ask a questionto them, so it stops them and supposed to like pitching their stuff, how togive a sample out. So they get people to be like, Oh, my God that tastesdelicious right think about the volume that would increase for the girl scoutsif they educated kids, that this was sales and how to do it. That way. Thatto me is something that more people just need to put that because they'realready doing it, it's just about framing it and helping them understandwhat it actually is. Yeah Yeah I love it. I mean yeah everyI mean I remember, stop selling my apple for some Dun cares at resate. Youknow just a them all those like real world examples of like her show itcould be useful and your your life awesome man. Well, this has been a lotof fun as we wrap up. I was asked the same question and you can go back tothings we talked about in the episode or just you know, it's your chance toimpart your your wisdom on our listeners here. If people forgeteverything that we just talked about in the last thirty five minutes, and onlyremember three things from this discussion, what would you want thoseto be believe in what you do, I'm not even on to say believe what you sell?Okay believe in what you do, if you don't know, I believe- and I want toframe this as people say- a lot of times follow your passion. I thinkthat's a terrible recommendation by the way, especially the kids, I ad, to likea kid coming out of Co. Follow your passion. If I followed my passion whenI was coming out of college I'd, be smoking weed and doing paint. You know,painting portraits on the side of the road and be dirt broke like that wouldbe my pat me bout exactly right, so you know no find your passion and thenfollow it, but you got to you got to figure it out. You have, especially inbusiness. You got to figure out a way to makemoney doing whatever your passion is. Okay. So, but if you believe in it manit makes life so much easier. You know what I mean. If you genuinely believein what you're doing, then it still will be hard, but it will be a lot lessand it'll be a lot more rewarding. Okay, that's one! Two is be gold, driven inthe sense of write down goals, and you don't have to big huge. You know I meansome people do massive goals. I want to be the most. You know biggestentertainer in the world and you know Morgan when I met him the first timeyou want to be the number one motivation, Al Speaker in the world andlook those are if you want to go that high by all means but be goal orientedso that they are milestones that you hit so that when the bad times comebecause they will that you can go back and say well, I'm doing this for areason, because if you do not set goals, then somebody else is dictating yourpath. Okay, if you're setting goals, then you're dictating the path- and Idon't know about you- I don't want somebody else to dictate my path andthen the third one, I think, is just just try to try to just get betterevery day. You know what I mean like. I live my life by the you know, the ruleof one percent right he's set thin barbata high at a high mutatae level,and then, when you hit that don't just throw another mountain top to climb upit just try to do one percent better every day and you're not going toachieve it every single day. But if you have that mentality of just can youlook at yourself at the end of the day and say I'm better today than it wasyesterday, and if you can genuinely say that then you're getting better, I meanmy recommendation, for instance, to everybody out there who's gettingmarried. So I went to a Indian wedding this weekend, which was absolutely thecoolest thing like I don't know if you've ever been to in in the now had aparty, then tiny bes ended, Hardin yeah...

...and my advice to every bride and groomon that day is always the same. It's always make sure that today is not thebest day of your relationship. Has a lot of a lot of people. Think,like you know, when I get married like this? Is it like? This is the pinnacleright and then all of a sudden they go back and they you know they live witheach other and they don't like each other and and they look back to glorydays like glory days of the saddest thing I've any time. Somebody talksabout glory days. I get out of the conversation as fast as possible,because the last thing I want to hear about is how cool you were back in highschool or how awesome you used to be to me I'm getting better every day. Youknow what I e. The reason I married my wife was not because we were perfect,but I saw US getting better and I saw US learning from each other, and youknow what I mean. So it's the same thing with your career, yourrelationships or anything like like that. Just make sure you're moving in apositive direction and you're not and you're, not saying neutral or gettingnegative right. So if you have that mentality, then you might be able to dosome really cool shit in your life. Oh Love! What you do be gold driven getone percent better. Every day I love it that last one is is so huge and I agreewith this. You know no looking back at the glory days and I think one of thegreatest things people can say it's like the old you've changed man I'mlike, but thank God, thank God. You know what I mean like thanks as I wasbecause I was a piece of shit back down or something you know a man like. Iwasn't, but you know what I mean like like if yeah, but you that's, whatwe're doing Y. AH, exactly I mean look your core values. I think I think wholething, there's some more stuff that shouldn't change about you, yeah man, Imean I'll, give you an example like I was a beer drinking rip jeans wearingdive Bar Guy for the majority of my life. Okay, and I thought, like theclub scene, was all for Weirdos and shit like that, and then all of asudden one day I went to a club did some stuff and all of a sudden, my eyeswent winged. You know what I mean and, and now all of a sudden, I'm at everyone of those clubs having a blast and enjoying you know at a level that Inever thought I would expect right and people who knew me back then in thoserip jeans, Beer Drinking Budweiser days like if they meet me today, they'll belike what the fuck like what happened to you and I'll be like I evolved. Itook my perceptions of what certain things were and set them aside and inyou know, and sometimes we need a little help to do that, but once you dowhen you open up your eyes to that possibility of maybe that's not asDuchy as I think it is. Let me get give it a shot. You be amazed at some of thecoolest Shit you can be exposed to so I think yeah. You should change, but youshould have all I think evolved it more to me I'd rather somebody say my whileyou've evolved as opposed to you change right, because I don't want to changewho I am fundamentally, but I definitely want to evolve as a human.Today, yeah, I love it man, but we will end there. Thank you. That was a ton offun. We probably could rift for another hour show, but do you appreciate thetime I know you're a brezy busy guy and for all those listening? Thank you somuch help you enjoy that as much as I did and that we'll see you next episodego make sure you check out all the cool stuff, John and his team are doing.You've got a bunch of on demands, content yeah! You just go to a websiteJ BARLCOMB! You go training for individuals. We got this whole new ondemand platform. It we're actually creating now membership. So it's notjust like videos and stuff we're doing amaze in there we're getting real realbuilding out that community. But we want to make this kind of the the youknow: Master class or sales over a lot of different content in there, but alsobe be very interactive with it as well, and then for anybody out there ifthey're, a looking for any type of freak. Insulting just hit me up on inStagra is John Miz and Michael Barrows. That's where I'm doing most of mywonder UN engagements with people. So if you have any questions that I couldanswer just about business life sales, anything like that. Just save me up onINTAAPA Y to jump into a conversation with the any time you need. I love itamazing make sure you take John up on that and we will see you next episode.This was another episode of the Sales Engagement podcast to help this get infront of more eyes and ears. Please...

...leave us a shining five star reviewjoin us at sales engagement com for new episodes, resources in the book onsales engagement to get the most out of your sales engagement strategy, makesure to check out out reached tio the leading sales engagement platform. Soyou on the next episode.

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