The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Education: Transforming the Perception of Sales

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How do you explain the sales profession to a kid to make them excited to choose a sales career? Because done well, sales is one of the most influential and rewarding career choices that there is.

I recently had a chance to chat with my friend John Barrows about sales education — for both sales professionals and kids.

What we talked about:

  • Trends in sales training
  • Ways to overcome the sales stereotype
  • The importance of believing in what you sell
  • How to describe the sales career to kids

Check out John's kids book.

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast. This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, and they just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach. Well does outreach learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach ones account based, plays, manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as they do. Had to outreach Doo on outreach to see what they have going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome back everyone to the sales engagement podcast. Thank you, as always, for hanging out with us. I know there's seven hundred and fifty nine million things behind for your attention, so we don't take it likely that you decided to hang out with us for the next thirty thirty five minutes. Promise to be an incredible episode. I have my man John Barrows with me today. John, welcome to the show. Mr Barker, are you my friends? Thanks for having me on. Man, I appreciate it's been a while. It has been a long, a long time, far too long. We were just talking before this. Like I used to bump into you at conferences and that was kind of our relationship. We didn't need to like zoom catch up or call too much because I I knew I would at least see you, you know, three times a year randomly at conferences. But gone are those days for for the time being. But excited to catch up with you today and for the listeners it's going to be a special kind of father's Day. Addition, we're going to talk about a lot of cool things, of course, you know. We'll talk about sales tips and tricks and how we view the landscape about we're ass going to talk about what it's like to be a dad when you're a CEO and a seller. How do you articulate what the sales profession is to to your children and encourage kind of the next generation to jump in the sales so should be a fun one. But before we get there, John, for those listeners who maybe had been living in a cave for the last the last eight years, who is John Barrows? Where'd you come from? WHAT'S THE SUPERHERO ORIGIN STORE? You know, try to make a brief but it's pretty basic beginnings. You know, mom, Dad, they're married for fifty plus years. Grew up in Bedford, Massachusetts, you know, kind of little town. Went to college because I didn't know what the hell what I wanted to do. What I grew up and got marketing because I thought that was kind of cool and easy. Drag my way through four years of college. Basically got out and didn't honestly didn't know what I wanted to do. Just knew I didn't want to be in the profession I chose, which is a game. We'll get to that. As far as you know, sales being a default profession and trying to change that. But you know, got into sales would de Walt. It was more of a vent marketing, though they positioned it as sales, but it was more event marketing, like I drove around a dodger and pickup truck, given away free tools or construction workers, which was pretty cool. Then kind of progressed pretty quickly through there, but I didn't want to move around like they wanted me to, so I quit that jumped into with Zerox. That's where I got my real sales education. You know, for people out there, zerox pretty much defined solution selling back in that late s early s. So they had the eight week sales training program and, man, if you want to talk about selling a commodity, fucking sell copiers. And, by the way, I sold him with the government to so it wasn't even you know, I didn't even have a choice. Did that for a year and a half and then started a company with my buddy. Well, my buddy started a company doing outsourced t services and I jumped on board as the fifth person on board, their fourth person on board there to run sales and marketing, and it was kind of my entree into startups. Right. I had never kind of thought I was a startup person, even though I knew I was, even though my DNA was there, because both my parents were pretty much entrepreneurs. And Yeah, and then just took off, man, and then took every training I could just to try to figure out. I was...

...twenty three years old, had no idea what I was doing. So sale and Miller, him and Tazz, all of it came across bats show, which was one of my training that I took. That I loved it was super tactical, grew thrive up using it fastest growing company Massachusetts for a few years. A row got us about eighty five employees and twelve million and revenues. Sold us off to staples. Staples bought us. I spent about a year going through that integration. Come to find out, apparently I'm not a corporate guy. I don't have much of a filter, as most of you will probably find note, and I really don't like playing politics. So after a while staples offered me another position, which they fired me, and I was looking for a job and bashow said Johnny would be a trainer. I was like no, I don't like trainers right because most trainers had come across either failed sales professionals and professional presenters. I didn't want to be that. And they were like no, you have to use these techniques to sell, so you can train, so you can get paid. So it's like I like that. So I join them, took on some bigger accounts, brought on some bigger ones and then, make a long story short, they screwed it up and I took it over. So I've been off on my own now with jab sales now for about eight years working with clients like sales force, linkedin slack, Google. We just picked up a Amazon, you know, a bunch of others. So having some fun out there, still training, still selling. You know, I consider myself a sales up who happens to train, not a trainer, because I don't believe you can just be a talking head in this world. I believe you got to do it in order to really respect it and understand it. So yeah, just having some fun, man, and just trying to kind of scale and do my thing as we go. I love it, man, such a great story and it's a lot of different things. I want to dive in today. It into grats on Amazon, by the way. That's massive. It's interesting to see some of these larger companies that I feel like didn't haven't had a traditional but we would call like a B tob sales motion, and they seem to all be kind of building that out right now, which is super interesting. I think B Toc leads to be to be to tell you that, like yeah, the way I see that, when you in you're in this world now with your fund and stuff, you've seen a lot of product led. The money's going towards the product led. You know, I think where get the product in the hand of the consumers right, get them use it, use it, use it, and then build the use case for the enterprise. So you're seeing all the money go there, but you're also seeing just the general sentiment go there. It's the Amazon model, like we all none of us like the betob sales experience. All of us love the be TOC experience. I mean to go on Amazon, one clicks send, it shows up on my door tomorrow, frictional as buy, like there's something to that. So I think people are starting with that, but then eventually they got to get to the enterprise, I. got to sell those big ticket items. So that's why a lot of these be TOC's are evolving to be two bees, because that's where the long term revenue is, as opposed to the you know, death by a million cuts, if you will, unaway. Yeah, I feel like we're we're moving towards and I agree everything there. It's kind of like product led growth and community let growth probably the biggest puzz words I hear right now talking to startups. But it feels like we're moving towards I think it's like an assisted self serve model, right so it's like I can go and if I can figure out your product in your service on my own and I can do it, that's great, but I do want someone who can be a strategic advisor when and if I need it, which is is super interesting and and for that to happen, products going to have to talk a lot more with sales. Do you see that with sales? Seem that you you train. You know, we talked about sales are marketing at I meant like that got every second panel was on that. D you see products coming into the discussions more, even when you're you're thinking about training? No, but they should. You know what I mean. I think the days of predictable revenue model sales is is dying. Its segmentation of rolls, str bdra aecs and you know all those stuff. It's great for organizations because they can scale like I can. It's easy. I can bring young kids in, beat them up, then move them to an AE and that type of thing can go from there. It's a terrible customer experience. Nobody likes to be handed off fifteen times before they actually talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about or be qualified. Fifteen Times. Every time they have...

...to get a hand it off. I mean the SDR does their job, they qualify, they flipped to the AE. The AE usually ask the same stupid Fu con questions and then jump someone some piece of Shit Demo, right, and then the engineer comes in to talk to him about and the engineer usually has to qualify because they've been getting me no contact, and the customers even more frustrated, you know, and that's a typical sale cycle, right. And then when it get flipped over to the CSM, the CSM is now like doesn't even know what they bought or why they bought it, and so they have to go through their own discovery. So I actually think they were moving back to full cycle sales, whereas scrs a's are going to roll up under marketing and operations and use a lot of the tools and ABM and all that other stuff to really target personalization and everything else to hand over to inside sales, but full cycle. But I also think that inside sales is going to have to also bring in the customer success component to their job because of what you said they're which is we have to help people use the product, get used to it and not sell them, but help them figure out how to use it and where it fits. And so it's going to be interesting how this thing I think we're in a weird transition phase right now that the covid is accelerated, but I think that the future sales rep is is going to be customer service in a lot of ways totally. I'm with you. I think we're very due for a big shake up and I think it's on the horizon. Not fully sure what what it looks like. Could even had be like more of a usage consumption model based on how successful people are. Yep, it'll be interesting to see how chakes out. But I got to bring us back to the core topic. So I want to I want to go back to so you have graduated, you have this this marketing degree, and what I want to talk about that that point is I can't tell you how many guests we have on here that fell into sales. Right. It is the default of pro but the pro and a con of sales is sales will always be here with open arms. Come bring me your the worried masses or there very little buried entry. You know at low buried a lot of talk and that's about it. Yeah, yeah, and so it's there and it's and, but then it's also a con because some of maybe maybe as a profession, we're losing some of the best in the brightest to other professions that could help elevate our our profession even further. Talk to me about out that experience. You know, you did you want to be a seller where you maybe I had a different view of sales people before you got into it. How did that happen? Yeah, honestly, I didn't even I didn't even think about it, you know what I mean? Like I didn't, because I also wasn't I never saw Glen Gary, Glen Ross, I never saw a wolf of Wall Street, I never saw a boy the room, I never saw any of the kind of the sales movie. So I never really thought about sales and I always knew I liked, I mean early ages. I like selling things because I liked making money and I liked having the freedom to do stuff that I wanted to do. You know, I was a waiter in school. So to me that's a lot about sales. Right. You're trying to interact with people in the heart of you work. The more you get paid. I needed money to buy my own Atari when I was a kid, and I'm way older than you are, so piss off and I you know, and I ended up, you know, selling like these little stupid, you know, Pumpkins and I painted faces on them so I can make a few extra bucks. Right. So I was always commerce driven, I was always kind of but I never really considered it a profession, right. And so when I got out, and I think that's the you say the Khn here, it's not only the con that we're losing talent, we're also polluting the pool with bad actors, because the way I put at it, put it as when a kid graduates college, right and realize is that whatever their degree was, either a they don't want to do it or be they can't make enough money doing it. Right. So they say, okay, well, sales, I'm pretty good with sales, I'm pretty good with people. You know, I heard you can make some money. Let me try that out right. And most of us get okay, here's a territory, here's a quote, a good luck it, very limited guidance, very limited training, anything like that. And you give a normal kid, so a kid who's pretty trustworthy, pretty honest, pretty good ethics,...

...that type of thing. You that now put them in a situation where they're making a low base salary, so if they don't sell they're not going to be able to pay their bills and if they miss their quota they're most likely going to get fired within two to three months. You put a normal person in that scenario, they will do some very abnormal things. They will cut corners, they will say shit that they probably wouldn't say otherwise. They will overpromise about certain things just to get the deal done, and that that just feeds into the perception that sales as a bunch of sleeves bags and you know, Glen Gary, Gown Ross and all that stuff, right. So what's encouraging now is when I was in school, you know, I graduated ninety eight, there was no degrees in sales, zero, right. So it wasn't even a thing. Now there's about seventy universities in the US at least that actually have sales as a major or a minor. So it's starting to be this an educated profession, but it's still the default and it's still kind of a numbers game in a lot of ways, and so that's why I was fortunate that I kind of graduated into sales in a lot of ways from my marketing degree because the walt, like I said, they the the role was sales, but it was really event marketing, like my job. I didn't have to sell anything. It was like the first swarm team that they called, which was, you know we if you all seeing those dodger and pickup trucks yellow de Walt across the side, like we all. I I had New England as my territory and all I did was drive around looking for construction sites and when I found a construction site, I drive up. I'd look to see what kind of tools they were using. If they weren't using the walt, I'd give away a bunch of free tools say hey, try these, I'll let me go. What you guys think, and I'd come back later and they be like yeah, we love them. Might say okay, cool, go down to home deepone by a bunch right, like I like. I had no quota, I had nothing, so it was, you know, what I had to do, event say to do. But then I graduated, after about six months and being the top rep in that territory to the next level at the wall, which was selling to Home Depot. So now I had six or seven accounts. I had six or seven home depot accounts and they had to buy the Waal. But my job was to take that tenzero order and turn it into a sixtyzero hundred thousand dollar order. So through cross cells and up cells and building endcaps. So it was a little bit more like selling because I did have to take ten but they were already buying it right then. So I got that taste of up cell, Cross Cell Marketing. Transition to sales ish and then I got to Xerox and Xerox was sales, but a still even with Zerox, a lot of my accounts had xerox machines right. I had a pads. Probably had like thirty percent of my territory was green field. Where's the seventy percent? Where's existing accounts? And I had to cross cell up cell. So again not like hardcore like start from scratch selling, but gave me a really strong foundation. And then when I got into my start up, then it was zero, like it was just I am now scraping and calling for everything that I did. So I was prepared for that, whereas I don't think a lot of people get through that progressions as well as are as fortunate to get through that progression like I did and I didn't, and it wasn't a conscious thing, it was just kind of a progression into it, and then I started to realize that I can love this, you know what I mean? I love that my effort is directly tied to my income and if I'm representing a product that I love, that it's making a difference for the people that I work with on this. So, yeah, I love a lot of what you said there and it reminds me of very similar to my jurn. I was a server as well and no parts and the thing that was kind of the just fell into these random sales rolls and, you know, found a love for what are your eyes? He's like, what's the first few steps? So we now have sephony universities that offer a sales course. What's the next step to having sales be regarded as not an afterthought but a you know, just like if you want to be a lawyer, doctor or you want to be a seller? Yeah, you know, I think I hate...

...to say this, but I think it's and it's the boring way, but it's the mass audience way it's you know, to have a movie that doesn't depict sales reps is total douchebags, you know what I mean, like because when people think of sales right now, they think of either use car salesman or they think Ling, Garylyn Rosswolf Wall Street, boiler room, right, that's the perception. I want more movies like pursuit of happiness, you know. I want more movies like Tommy Boy, you know what I mean, like those movies, but highlighting the fact that that is sales, right, like hard work, representing something you believe in, making a difference. That's what that is. And it's almost like I was bummed when Wolf of Wall Street came out, for instance, right because I felt like we had just gotten over the Borial Room Shit, you know what I mean, like all right, like boiler room and going Gary Gown Ross, and that kind of stigmatized us for a while and I was like, all right, we're starting to kind of move in the right direction and then all of a sudden wolf of Wall Street came out. I'm like, God, I love this movie and apparently I need to get some quailudes, but I like but God damn it, like that's what people think, right, and so I think, you know, there's this there's a macro education of like changing the perception at a way earlier age, right, whether it's when Kids Bring Your Dad to school today, bring your mom to school to day, like bring the parent that's in sales and talk to kids about, you know, what a career in sales really is and what it means and how it's not about just, you know, stuff and stuff down people's throats. Is About, actually, I tell people all this all the time, like I don't sell Shit. I literally don't sell you anything. I help you achieve your goals or solve your problems. Those are the two things. And if you don't have that mindset in sales and get out of sales. If you're just here to get a commission check, please leave. But if you genuinely believe that what you're selling is a makes a difference for the right person man, then sales is probably one of the most rewarding careers there is. So I think it's a it's a it's a macro education of changing the perception and stop pitgeing holding people into the perception that everybody has. You know what I mean. It's if we look at the macarick I mean I was watching something recently as far as race and that type of stuff, and there was, you know, somebody saying, like why does every black person in a movie have to be depicted as the drug dealer, the this, that, that and the other thing. It's like we need to actually level up and stop it with the perceptions of people or the what are they called the stereotype here, know what I mean? Yeah, like the stereotypes and break that mold in race, religion, sex, sales in a lot of ways, because I think that's the that's the easy route, right, is to make a movie that just feeds into everybody's stereotype of what that thing is, and I think that's what we've been a victim of in a lot of ways. But again, not undeserved either, because there's a there is a huge part of our population, unfortunately, that doesn't do it for the right reasons. They do just try to get a paycheck, you know what I mean? So yeah, totally, yeah, I mean it's I was those stereotypes. God, I helped a friend of mine, she just graduated. I was like this and get a bedr roll at a Tech Company. World's your oyster. I don't care what you want to do. You get that, you crush it for two years. You know, trust, for you'll have an incredible career. Whatever you decide to do. Get a marketing CS, you can jump over to engineering if you go, take a boot camp course to have you want, but like just do this. And she's, of course, a little, little nervous. And we were talking about it, you know, after after some drinks, and I basically said where you said. It's like you're you have to get this out of your mind, that you're selling something right. Like the way I put it was like there's people out there that have broken ankles or they're trying to strengthen a bum ankle, and you are the only person that can fix that broken ankle or strengthen it. So like that mental shift of I'm a problem solver is is really a big one and it sounds like one that was just a natural extension of your journey. That's always how you kind of saw sorry yourself. That sounds Oh yeah, and in it's funny.

You know you. I know you said you're going to ask three things to take away right the end here. The one that I always think of is believing, which is cell right, because when I got fired from staples, okay, I had a little bit of a crisis of conscience there, because I'd never been fired by any like. I was a top perform in every single job I've had. Right, and and I and I'm like hole, and it came out of it didn't come out of nowhere, but to me it felt like it came out of nowhere. Right. So I was panicking because I had sold it services for seven years, right, and I was and I remember being like, well, Shit, and I had no plan B. I wasn't looking at any other options, like I was literally a thousand percent into the figuring this out. And so now I'm like, Holy Shit, I need to find a job. And I'm like, wait a minute, am I in it? Sales Guy? I'm like, is that what I am? I'm like, I needn like computers, like I really don't like I can't stand I just want him to work. Right. Yeah, and so I was like what do I do? Right, and my wife, to her credit, was was the one who helped me figure this out. She goes, well, let's take a step back. She goes, let's look at every career, every job you've had, and let's time I take a step back and peel back the onions of layers of why were you the best at that job? For whatever was right. So let's start with the walt why were you one of the best reps at the wall? And I was like, I don't know, the wall power tools are pretty Badass, like they're they were cool, they were really good, they're the high quality and they were they were Badass. I loved representative walls, so it wasn't hard for me to talk about to Walt Right. And then she was like, all right, well, let's take a look at Zerox. Why we the best, one of the best reps at zero? So I was like, I don't know. I got in like copiers, but I genuine believe that Xerox was the best copier in the industry. Right. I genuinely believe that. So wasn't hard for me to represent Zerox as the best for the right people thrive my company. Why? Why did we why we be the fastest growing company amount? Well, it's not that I loved it t I could care less about it, but I believe in the people and the work that we did for the clients that we were, you know, helping, right, and so I took a step back and I was like, well, so it's evident to me now that it has nothing to do with what I sell. It has everything to do is if whether I believe in what I sell. And that's going to be a core takeaway at the end of this conversation is, which is look, if you do not believe in what you sell, go find something else to do. Go find something else to sell. But sales, I genuinely believe as the transfer of enthusiasm, right, yeah, somebody told me that earlier in my career. I believe it that much because people say I'm not in sales. Bullshit. Take the I'm going to say dorkiest, in all due respect because I lived with engineers. I love engineers. Take the Dorky is most introverted engineer you've ever met in your entire life. Okay, who would be Amili fight you about being in sales? Right, be like, absolutely not. On the furthest thing from sales you could possibly imagine. Ask Them Lat to describe to you the last time they created something or solved a problem and watch them light up like a Christmas tree. Oh well, the other day I was working on this issue and this is what happened, and I did this and I did that, and this is what any and and you watch them like they're their energy and their enthusiasm and their passion come through. And if you have that prople like of so of, if you you're that person, you're that engineer, you're telling me that and I have that problem, all of a sudden I want what you got. That to me it sales. And so that's that. You got to have that belief. And for the people out there who are listening that don't necessarily believe in what they sell, first and foremost, don't just quit and say, piss off, I'm going to go find something I love. But go talk to your executives of why they started the business. Go Talk to some customers about the value they get from your service. Go Talk to the customer success team and say, Hey, can I talk to a couple of our best customers and I just ask them like what do they get out of this and what is it done for their business and those type of things. So you can understand, like you might not love the pro I didn't love copiers. I could care less about copiers. But when I talked to the Secretary of state and they talked to the Treasury and talked about how the efficiency that these copiers were able to get their paycheck, people's paychecks out in a fraction of the time so that they can get paid more, I was like Whoa. And why? The Xerox Copier was the better version, because the other Canon copiers they broke down and there was...

...times where they couldn't get the checks out to people and therefore they couldn't make their payments. And it was like, Holy Shit, I get it, like we're selling an outcome. We're not selling the product of the service, we're selling the outcome and if you can buy, if you if you understand that, this is one of them. Like I said, I always say the sales the greatest profession in the world when done right. It's the worst when done wrong. Yes, that was gold. Everyone go rebind about two minutes, lsicitles, listen and then again. That got were fired up. You can tell the passion in it. And so the takeaway there was, you know, believe in the product you sell, but I'll almost read between the lines. Who has like a second one was you did a great job at deconstructing the box that maybe you and society and employers put you in. Right, and I think I salespeople now we're get told like sell into the same niche, all this sort of stuff, and there's this figment of our own imagination. We make this box for for ourselves. And like, I'll tell you, and you you know this, running your own company, you're a CEO. So you're you're selling, but you're a CEO and the skills you have as a seller, you don't have a box. I mean this fun stuff. I'm doing this like BC world. It's all sales. All sales is fundraising a sales. Getting into deals is sales. It's all sales. Are All these founders I'm talking to that are raising fifty million dollars if they can't sell, they can't get that random. You are all of these things at once if you're a seller, and I almost wish more sellers knew that, and that's the skills you're building are widely, widely applicable in just about any profession. I could think of handling rejection sales. A teacher how to handle rejection. Right. You sell your ideas internally. Right, so so say you're going for, you sell yourself every time you interview. That's why I like my sister, I love her to death. Right. She's out in California. She's a social worker. Right, Peace Corps, the whole thing. Love it to death. She vehemii for a while, like hated sales, sales. I go, Nancy, you do realize you're in sales, right, and she was no, I'm not. She was like angry about it too. I was like, she's like, no, I'm not. I go, well, let's let me ask you. You just got a new job recently, right. She was yeah, I go, did they hire you off your resume? And she goes, what do you mean? I go, did you just submit your resume and they called you up and said congratulations, welcome aboard? She goes, well, no, I go, you have to go through an interview process, right. She goes yeah, I go, well, congratulations here in sales, and she's like well, I go, Oh, and, by the way, you're pretty good at it, because I hired you, and she's like our right, so so, but the point is is it's yes, it's a job, yes, it's a profession, but it's also a mentality. Right, sell yourself, you sell your ideas, you sell the next day, you know, you like you have to deal with rejection. It's almost like I wish everybody. It's almost like I wish everybody who came out of school could go into the military for a year just to kind of be humbled and be in a heterogeneous all of the same level, so that we could appreciate each other a little bit more. But I also wish, even after that, that everybody got like, I don't know, a dozen steak knives, like a dozen sets to say, gives, that they had to go and sell and they couldn't sell them to their friends or family. They legit had to go to strangers and try to get these things and they couldn't get a job, regardless of whatever the job was, until they sold those ten things. Because it's going to teach you humility, it's going to teach you how to figure out where the your best chances are of getting that. It's going to figure out how to present yourself in ways, it's going to figure get you figure out how to talk to people that you never would have talked to before in your lives, and so all those skills put you in such a better position as as a professional. I heard this set a long time ago. It's probably not accurate, so don't quote me on this one, but it was something only on a podcast. It's only going to be on here forever. You didn't yeah it, but it's it was something like, at a certain point eighty percent of the global two thousand CEOS backgrounds was in sales,...

...because sales look any other profession. If you're an accountant, you're an accountant. Okay, you have to deal with other people, but you do this thing. Okay, marketing a little bit broader, operations a little bit broader. But guess what, in sales we got to figure out how to deal with everybody and we have to know enough about every role to figure out not only how to engage in really, but also how to leverage it right and how to get along with those people. Finance, we got to figure out our commissions and we also get to figure out how to, you know, how to figure out how to structure deals in that type of thing. So so we have to understand finance. Legal, we have to understand how contracts work so that we can get them through and we have to learn how to talk to lawyer so we don't piss them off. They don't, you know, completely cut us out executives. We have to learn how to talk to executives so that we can get the deals done. I mean literally, we have to learn a little bit about every role in an organization and we end up being the quarterbacks of all those roles. And so who's better position to be the CEO of a company than a sales professional who spent their lives figuring that out right? I mean, I get concerned with engineers who start businesses and think that they're not in sales. It's like your to your point. You're not going to get that funding, kid, like unless your product is so insane it's like a slack type of thing, where legit like crack, where people just want it and they use it and it's this viral skin thing. Like, unless you're that type of a product, you gotta sell. And the problem is is that they think. I wrote this blog posts a long time ago called the the founders dilemma, which is a lot of founders think that you know sit. Let's take the engineering founder, and again, you're in this world more than I am. They come up with a product right and because it's there's they're passionate about it, right. So what do they do? They go to their friends, families and full so a very friendly audience, and they present their whatever they created. And because they're presenting it very passionately to a familiar group, they're going to get good feedback. They're gonna be like Oh shit, and they might even say, Oh, I could use that. Yes, give me some of that, like I want that. And so all of a sudden is like, Holy Shit, this is this stuff is awesome. Everybody wants it. Let me just go hire a VP of sales and go wrong. That VP of sales is not going to have the same passion for Your Business. They don't have the same understanding, they don't know the market fit as well as you do. You know that type of thing, and so they offload it to somebody else to sell it for them. They remove themselves from sales, thinking sales is easy because everybody wanted it at first. Then they get pissed at the VP of sales because the VP of sales hasn't or the the first sales up hasn't closed or hasn't sold as much. So then they dump sales and say yeah, I told you. Sales is fucking sales rep suck. And so then they go marketing and they say, okay, now let's just market this because we just got to get people to know about it, and then that only gets them to a certain level and then they begrudgingly get back to sales eventually, when they're like, oh well, Shit, I apparently we have to bring more sales or it's but it's just like this, this nightmare scenario where if you're not top down sales oriented, you're only going to get so far. And I don't get me wrong, they'll be some UNICORNS that'll tableaus, the slacks, the Linkedin's that'll just rip. You know what I mean. And if you're one of those, God bless you. Right. But the other ninety nine percent of products companies don't fail because because they're there's not a product market fit or anything like that. Most companies fail because they can't fucking sell period. Yeah, I agree, and even even those crack Lookal and crap companies, you know, they're incredible companies. Yeah, they all eventually get sales teams, and the feedback I've heard from almost all of the one lucky to know what we you like you let people at all those companies. They all say, I wish we brought in sales earlier. Yes, we grew this fast, but if we had just brought in sales to supplement this, it would have been even faster. And I love here in those companies that say, Oh no, we purposely don't buy some you don't hire sales reps. like, okay, I'll give you two years before you like, I'm going to record that clip and I'm going to fire it right back at you when I look at Linkedin and see how many people you're hired in the next year. They had the sales title, because it eventually happened. So that it all right. So there's a few more things I'm going to get to...

...and then we'll kind of wrap this up. So I spend a lot of time thinking about like the future, where we're going. Of course, this year a lot of people did you know there's decentralization and all this crypto stuff, AI, machine learning, and it's kind of crazy where we're going. I actually look at sales as one of the most future proof careers you could get into. Truly, like it's been happening since the dawn of time. You'll always need that transfer of trust and enthusiasm. Lawyers that's really good out here. Them could replace that. Doctors do I want and an algorithm or machine that it makes your route mistakes. Of course, like there's all this stuff. Always will be salespeople. So we need to find ways to encourage more people to pick sales as their first choice. Of course you you wrote a book on this called I want to be in sales when I grow up, with your daughter. How should we be thinking as as leaders, as a lot of leaders that listen to this? How can we articulate and encourage more young people to get into sales? It's tough, right, I mean because it is an education thing. I mean I think it comes with doing stuff like writing books about sale, like you know. I like. The reason I wrote that book is because no, first of all, no kid ever says that. No Kid ever says I want to be in sales when I grow up. Right, yeah, they want to be a doctor, they want to be a lawyer, they want to be because that's what they see on TV and everything else. And and that's maybe an easy correlation, right, when you tell somebody you're in sales, it's kind of this, especially kids. It's kind of like, well, what do you do? Do you talk to people all day long. It's like gonna. So I think it's first of all to fight like helping redefine what sales is and going back to it's about helping people solve problems or achieve goals, right, and I think if you look at that as the essence of what sales is, which is what my opinion of what sales is. Other people have different definitions of it, but I think if we reframe the conversation about what sales actually is, okay, then we can start educating and showing examples to people about I mean when I wrote my you know, one of the things that came out and writing the book with my daughter was like you know, she would I was trying to explain to her what sales was. She's like well, what is sales? And I'm like, well, think about it this way. And in the book is like this, you know, the mother and the father, right, and in like see this butter dish right here. Well, somebody had to sell, somebody the materials to be able to make this butter dish. Okay, and then the person who made this butter dish had to then sell it to the store so that the store could have that butter dish so that when you and I went to the store to have something, that we could buy that butter dish so that we don't have butter all over our hands. You know what I mean. So, like this Cup that we're drinking out of right now, somebody had to sell somebody these materials to be able to make this cup so that I could drink out of this cup. Do you like Jink drinking out of this cup? Yeah, I like drinking out of this cup. There's what sales is about, you know what I mean. Like so I think it's about reframing the conversation a little bit and showing more real examples as opposed to the Glen Gary, Glenn Ross type of crap and the perception, if you will. So I think it's reframing the conversation. I think it's having better a better understanding now of the education process and having curriculum around it. I think the universities have an easier time because people a little bit more mature. I I don't necessarily know if it's appropriate at an early age to kind of have curriculum around sales. But think about everything that a kid does throughout their career, for throughout their life cycle. That is sales. Girl Scout Cookies, which is what we base the book off of. They got fund raisers for their school so that they can, the cheerleaders can go to the nationals. Right, that's all sales. And so if we start talking about it in that way, that this isn't a fund raiser, this is a sales experience, you know what I mean, this is this is we are now having to learn how to sell ourselves, our product, our service, whatever it is, so we can generate money so that we can do the stuff that we want to do. So I think that's where if we just start talking about it in that way...

...and highlighting, Hey, Baite, by the way, everybody, this cookie sale that we're doing here this yeah, we're doing it for all these good reasons, but understand this is actually sales, you know what I mean, and and giving them the tools to be able to be successful, to raise the most amount of money possible so they could go to the coolest hotel when they go to the nationals. You know what I mean. Like, think about that for a second. These girls scout cookies. Like most girls just kind of sit there at the you know, the front of a stop and shop here and but you know like a grocery store or something like that, and hope that the person coming in the door will buy in the Ay you want cookies. And they kind of think about giving the girls the power of understanding how to say hello to somebody, how to ask a question to them so it stops them and supposed to like pitching their stuff, how to give a sample out so they get people to be like, Oh my God, that tastes delicious. Right. Think about the volume that would increase for the girl scouts if they educated kids that this was sales and how to do it that way. That, to me, is something that more people just need to put that because they're already doing it. It's just about framing it and it helping them understand what it actually is. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean it. Yeah, everything. I mean, I remember stop selling my apple for some Dunkaroo's at recent yeah, just give them all those like real world examples of like here's how it could be useful in your in your life. Awesome, man. Well, this has been a lot of fun. As we wrap up, I always ask the same question and you can go back to things we talked about in the episode or just you know, it's your chance to in part your your wisdom on our listeners here. If people forget everything that we just talked about in the last thirty five minutes and only remember three things from this discussion, what would you want those to be? Believe in what you do. I'm not even to say believe in what you sell. Okay, believe in what you do. If you don't, not believe, and I want to frame this as people say a lot of times, follow your passion. I think that's a terrible recommendation, by the way, especially two kids had to, like a kid coming out of follow your passion. If I followed my passion when I was coming out of college, I'd be smoking weed and doing paint you know, painting portraits on the side of the road and be dirt broke like that would be my pass to me. Both exactly right. So you know, no, find your passion and then follow it. But you got to you got to figure it out. You have, especially in business. You you got to figure out a way to make money doing whatever your passion is. Okay, so, but if you believe in it, man, it makes the life so much easier, you know what I mean? If you genuinely believe in what you're doing, then it still will be hard, but it will be a lot less and it'll be a lot more rewarding. Okay, that's one. Two is be gold driven in the sense of right down goals, and and you don't have to big, huge, you know I mean some people do massive goals. I want to be the most, you know, biggest entertainer in the world, and you know Morgan when I met him the first time. You want to be the number one motivational speaker in the world, and look those are. If you want to go that high, by all means, but be goal oriented so that there are milestones that you hit so that when the bad times come, because they will, that you can go back and say, well, I'm doing this for a reason, because if you do not set goals, then somebody else is dictating your path. Okay, if you're setting goals, then you're dictating the path and I don't know about you, I don't want somebody else to dictate my path. And then the third one, I think, is just just try to try to just get better every day. You know what I mean? Like I live my life by the you know, the rule of one percent. Right. She's set the barber to high, at a high, U attainable level. And then what you hit that don't just throw another mountain top to climb up, but just try to do one percent better every day. And you're not going to achieve it every single day, but if you have that mentality of just can you look at yourself at the end of the day and say, I'm better today than I was yesterday, and if you can genuinely say that, then you're getting better. I mean my recommendation, for instance, to everybody out there who's getting married. So I went to an Indian wedding this weekend, which was absolutely the coolest thing. Like, I don't know if you've ever been to when India had a party. Then do my best fended heart right and there. And my advice to every bride and groom on that day is...

...always the same. It's always make sure that today is not the best day of your relationship. There's a lot of a lot of people think, like you know, when I get married, like this is it, like this is the pinnacle, right, and then all of a sudden they go back and they you know, they live with each other and they don't like each other and and they look back and glory days like glory days. Of the saddest thing I've anytime somebody talks about glory days, I get out of the conversation as fast as possible because the last thing I want to hear about is how cool you were back in high school or how awesome you used to be. To me, I'm getting better every day. You know what I've the reason I married my wife was not because we were perfect, but I saw us getting better and I saw US learning from each other, and you know what I mean. So it's the same thing with your career, your relationships or anything like that. Just make sure you're moving in a positive direction and you're not and you're not saying neutral or getting negative right. So if you have that mentality, then you might be able to do some really cool shit in your life. Boom, love what you do. Be Gold driven, get one percent better every day. I love it. That last one is is so huge and I agree with this. You know, no looking back at the glory days, and I think one of the greatest things people can say it's like the old you've changed. Man. I'm like, thank God, thank God, you know what I mean, like thanks, it was because I was a piece of shit, back down or something. Anything I got wasn't. But you know what Anyan like like if you have but you that's what we're doing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, look your core values. I think, I think hopefully, to you, there's some core stuff that shouldn't change about you. Yeah, man, I mean, I'll give you an example. Like I was a beer drinking, ripped jeans wearing dive bar guy for the majority of my life, okay, and I thought like the club scene was all for Weirdos and shit like that. And then all of a sudden, one day I went to a club, did some stuff and all of a sudden my eyes went wing, you know what I mean. And and now all of a sudden I'm at every one of those clubs having a blast and enjoying, you know, it at a level that I never thought I would expect. Right and people who knew me back then in those ripped jeans, beer drinking budwis or days like, if they meet me today, they'll be like what the fuck, like what happened to you and I'll be like I evolved. I took my perceptions of what certain things were and set them aside and on, you know, and sometimes we need a little help to do that. But once you do and you open up your eyes to that possibility of maybe that's not as Douchey as I think it is. Let me get give it a shot. You'd be amazed at some of the cool shit you can be exposed too. So I think, yeah, you should change, but you should evolved. I think evolved more. To me. I rather somebody say, Maw, while you've evolved, as opposed to you've change, right, because I don't want to change who I am fundamentally, but I definitely want to evolved as a human totally. Yeah, I love it, man, but we will end and there. Thank you. That was a ton of fun. We probably could riff for another hour so, but do you appreciate the time? I know you're a busy, busy guy, and for all those listening, thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did and that will see you next episode. Go make sure you check out all the coolest stuff John and his team are doing you've got a bunch of on demand content. Yeah, you just go to our website, J Barrowscom. You go training for individuals. We got this whole new on demand platform. It's we're actually creating now a membership, so it's not just like videos and stuff. We're doing AMA's in there. We're getting real real building out that community. But we want to make this kind of the the you know, masterclass or sales or with a lot of different content in there, but also be very interactive with it as well. And then for anybody out there if they're looking for any type of free consulting, just hit me up on instagram. Is John MS and Michael Barrows. That's where I'm doing most of my won to one engagements with people. So if you have any questions that I could answer, just about business life, sales, anything like that, just hit me up on instagram. I happy to jump in into a conversation with there any time you need. I love it amazing. Make sure you take John up on that and we will see you next episode. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front of more eyes and ears, please...

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