The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

Cold Calling Secrets You Haven’t Heard Before w/ Josh Braun

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Do your salespeople need the training to learn how to close better?


To find out some amazing cold calling techniques, we spoke with Josh Braun, the Founder of SalesDNA, which helps companies generate a steady flow of meetings each month with qualified buyers and migrate them forward to the point where they buy.  

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast.This podcast is brought to you by outreach dot I oh, the leading salesengagement platform helping companies, sellers and customer success engaged with buyers and customers inthe modern sales era. Check out sales engagementcom for new episodes, resources andthe book on sales engagement coming soon. Now let's get into today's episode.Welcome everyone to the sales engagement podcasts. Me More Costaglo. I'm here again. I might be boring you, but you know I'm back. They havea do it again. I got the most interesting man in the universe,definitely the most interesting man on Linkedin right now. Josh Brawn with me.What's up, Josh? I'm so interesting that my prospects cold call me littleriff off of dollside case man. That's that is that's so, so interestingthat the phone is afraid of me. Come on, thank you. I'mhere all week. Ha Ha ha, a lot it. Wait, Ionce almost one salesperson of the year, but they found out I was usingMorse code to prospects. Always disqualified. Thank you. Well, well,I'm here all week. Well, how you've been blowing it up on linkedinbunch of cold content and we were just talking right before the call and wethought something that would be really practical, user oriented. I can use itright now, and also that it ties directly to the engagement in the salesprocess, is how to open up a cold call. So why don't youtalk a little bit about some stuff you've been hearing about opening cold calls andthen we'll dive into some really practical stuff. Yeah, let's talk a little bitabout the problem first. Right. So we've talked about this before.Mark when we're cold calling and we sound like every other salesperson. So,hello, my name is with you. Can I have two minutes that Icatch you at a good time. How are you today? That the sortof typical openers. We are a white circle and we've talked about this.This is a concept by Dave Trot, who is a really awesome adage guy, big advertising agency guys, and talks a lot about this. You're awhite circle in a sea of white circles, and so when you sound like everyother salesperson, there's a negative stereotype, like it or not, associated withsalespeople, and so when you sound like a salesperson during those first threeseconds people have a tendency to shut off, and so we have to work reallyhard to be able to be a red ex something that's a little bitdifferent, so that we can at least have an opportunity to start a conversation, because what people fear is that you're another salesperson trying to ask them ifthey have a question in the mall so you can rid lotion on their hands. That's what they're afraid of, right and so it's interesting, Mark,you've probably done this before, right mark, you've gone into a department store,maybe to buy a shirt or a suit, and you've had a repcome up to you. Our Salesperson said, can I help you'd like? What'sthe first thing you say? They just happen to me them all.Yesterday I had the kids with me. I'm walking down the middle of themall and some girl gives me the aggressive I'm about to put something on youthat you don't want on you glance and I immediately move my field of visioninto a way that I can't make on contact. Like literally just happen towell, why do you do why do you do Tho? Let's talk alittle bit about psychology. Like what's going on in the mind of our prospects. So in this case, you what was going on in your mind whenyou wanted to look away and pick up the pace. I felt like oneshe was going to give me an offer that she wouldn't let me say noto, like I wouldn't be able to end the conversation. It too.She's going to talk to me about something that I really have no interest in. It couldn't be made to have an interest in. Yeah, I mean, you work really hard for your money and the last thing you need issomebody selling you some crappy thing you don't need and then you have less money. Like we're afraid of that pressure of being sold and manipulated, right,and that's that's that's a very real thing that people bump into. And soon a cold call, when we're making that call, people have gotten callsfrom telemarketers and from salespeople. They may...

...be bumped into try to cancel theirInternet service and they've had a retention specialist trying to convince them otherwise. Andso we have to really fight against that, and the best way to fight againstthat is to have the call opener be something that they have not reallybumped into before, and we're going to get into specific phraseology in a second, but by just to set the stay a little bit, we have tobe a red axe, we have to sound a little bit different than ourtonality and we have to use words and phraseology that's a little different. Thesecond key concept we have to have before we make a cold call is whatthe purpose of the cold call is, which might sound blatantly obvious. Imean mark, if we were to ask pretty much any str and the planetwhat the purpose of the cold call is, they would probably say to book ofEating, book of meeting, and that's a problem right. The reasonthat's a problem is because when we come in with the intent that everybody needsthe thing that we're selling, we're go going to come across like the mallkiosk person that thought mark needed lotion rubbed on his hands. So let metell a little story here to burn this in a little bit. Just becauseyour thing has benefits doesn't necessarily mean the person you're calling has a problem thatthey want to solve at that specific time. For example, my grandma had acrappy toaster. Only one side worked, it only made light toast and ittook forever. Every time I would come over with a new toaster,I could never sell or the new toaster. I mean it was better, rightmarket had two sides, two slices of toast, it made it darkand it was quicker. It had a new TUI and new toaster user interface. Marketing. Ask Your question. Why would grandma never be open to gettingthis toaster? It was better, it had benefits and no cue. Whynot? Well, my grandma only wanted one slice of toast. She wasn'tin a rush and she liked her toast light. So she wasn't ready toswitch because switching is painful. She rather dance with the devil. She knowsjust because someone has a problem doesn't necessarily mean they want to solve it either. So we have to have a problem. That's intense enough. Another story.My Barbecue. Only half of it works to problem, but I'm onlycooking for my wife and I, and so all the salmon, because we'reJewish we eat a lot of salmon, is only on one half. Soif you were to call me and try to sell me or pitch me ona grilled demo, who wouldn't be open to it? Because the problems notintense enough. So we have to understand we're going in on a call,that the intent is not to book a meet in. The intent is tosee if someone has a problem that you can help them solve and if theydon't, we have to get off the call and go to the next person, because we don't want to book meetings for a ease where there's not enoughpain, because those are not good meetings and ultimately we're here to have meetingsthat convert into revenue. So the biggest problem I see from an intent perspectiveis we book meetings with people that don't have enough pain or problem to warrantspending time with. So I am having a little bit of semi emotional responseto this, which is I put my my str cold calling hat back on. It's been on that the shelf for many years, but I'm put itback on and I'm thinking I've just taken my bull's eye from hundreds of peopledown to dozens of people and I feel like I'm risking too much Josh,that I can't do that because I'm going to have so few people that aregoing to want what I have and need what I have like it's too hardto find those people. Well, let's not talk about what you have,because that's not really relevant right now. We're looking for our people that havea problem that you think that you can help themselves. So I actually justrole play this, Mark. Let's just take it out of theoretical let's doit. But you you're in a you're in a sales roll. Right,let's I certusly pretend that you're responsible for unleash, because this is pretty freshin my mind. So unleash is outreaches...

...conference for sales people. It's thenumber one comforts of the youear if you're not going at mark up would giveyou a discount. Maybe, I don't know. Well, let's say thata problem might mark might have if he was responsible for unleash? The numberone problem you would have would be what, making sure I have enough meeting space, like we don't want to overbook. Okay, that's one thing, butwhat would another thing be if you're responsible for the conference, for wouldthe number one thing be that you want to make sure happens? I wantto make sure people show up, I want to make sure people show hopeand I want to make sure I got tickets sold. There you go.I mean you want to make you want to say you want to sell abunch of tickets. So my hypothesis is that if I was calling mark,my hypothesis would be that he would need to sell that thing out. Soif I were to call, call you and I want to say, Hey, mark, this is Josh, I think you might have a problem.Who is this? This is if you promise not to get mad at meif I tell you what it might be? Yeah, okay, sure, okay, out a role play for a second. See, I'll see howdifferent that is automatically. So I'm not saying my name is Josh with salesDNA, I'm not saying how are you, I'm not saying you have two minutes. I'm going to focus in on one problem now. So now I'mgoing to say mark, Mark, saw that you guys have unleash. Iwould imagine you guys are completely sold out, because I have a way for youguys to get more tickets. But that's not a problem right. Youguys are sold out. I should just hang up the phone right now.We're getting closed, but it would be lies to know for sure. Okay, so see what I just did there and literally and literally six seconds.I use something called a negative question. Notice what I said. I I'massuming you guys, you guys are all sold out. US just hang upright now. Notice what I did there. A subtle the subtle language. Itwasn't like I have an idea to help you more sound, more soutsome more tickets. Are you interested? It's okay. It was on yoursite. You guys are doing this unleash thing. I've got a really unorthodoxand usual way for you to make sure you sell out more tickets. ButI would assume you guys are all sold out as just just hang up now. You guys are good. Not some mark did there. It's like,well, we're almost, so that I then. So it's back in arole play. I'm sorry, almost. Yeah, we still have, youknow, four hundred tickets left to say, all to Max out. Mark,if I could show you a way to sell all of those tickets withinthree weeks. I wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in meeting with food, wouldyou? I might be. I'm sorry, might be, ha ha. No, you're right, we probably should talk. So it's so. SoI'm not buying your bulls eye stuff, mark, because there are plenty ofpeople out out there that have a problem and shame on you if you can'tfind them. Because if the metal detector doesn't go off. I was justtalking about this and I teach my wife sales were about to air this episode. There was a guy on the beach with the metal detector. was Hethinking? Everywhere in the beach. No. Where was he digging. Where beamed? We're beeped if you're not getting a beep. So if I calledMark and he said we're sold out, he's not beeping, that's fantastic.I'm onto the next person on the beach, the next person that has the conference. There's no need setting a meeting with someone that doesn't Beep, becauseultimately what ends up happening is your acquisition cost go really high. The Ahe's starting to have conversation with someone's on a two at the motivation meter,I call it, you know, zero to ten. So my gril problem. I'm at a too. Yeah, and it doesn't close anyway, andso ultimately it's not good for the business. Tell me a little bit about thisnegative question. Is that like, is the boss never split the differencething? Yeah, yeah, that's kind of where I got it from andit's really highly effective. So I mean, we could do we could do acouple of more examples of this. But when you kind of phrase thequestion like that and you say I, you know, I don't suppose that'sa problem for you or you guys aren't bumping into that right. You guysare good. You guys are crushing it. I should just hang up right now. It makes people feel safe because oftentimes, when we're trying to getpeople to say yes, Chris boss refers to this as a yes trap,like where are they leading me? Yes feels like I'm out of Control,and Chris postulates that no feel safer. And you notice this when you're ona call. And and mark, I know you and I know each otherwell enough where if you wouldn't have like you were tell me what you wouldreally say. That at it right, and so I know that we don'tpull any punches. When mark and I roll play, you'll notice that whenyou have the right tonality and you kind of bring this you know. Idon't suppose that's a the problem. Yeah,...

...but but why would you do that? Why wouldn't just keep doing I do this with my prospects all thetime. Now we're not booking enough meetings. Well, you're booking plenty of areyou just keep doing what you're doing. I want to see where there areon that motivation meter because ultimately, ultimately, people are going to buyuntil they're at an eight, nine or ten. So my gas example,we can also ask some questions to get them up that motivation meter, andI know we spoke about this on a previous podcast. Hey, Josh,you know, I know only half of its working, but have you everheard of a propane leak test? That's done to people that have only halffor their grill working? What do you mean? Well, I don't knowif you know this, but if you're propane is leaking, sometimes that meansthat only half of this working and you can get a flare up which canbring your face and here's a picture what that looks like. Now, asan old, scared Jewish man, I'm out of seven and then all ofa sudden my wife says, Hey, we're having a party and we gottwelve people. Now I can't use one side of the girl. So ourneeds change in time. But if we don't know how to ask problem findingquestions, because sometimes people don't know their problems right. So we have toask really smart questions to have you could those those considered questions. The problemfinding questions ever your Howdy, have you had your your gate checked? Ifyou're in a running store, what do you mean? I'm on a Treadmillihave pronated feet and what moments later on my sneakers aren't through. Right questions. So we got to get we can get people there, but that openeris really key and I really like that. You know, I think you gota problem opener. We're talking about a disruptive open. or I mightcold call mark. Mark at this is Josh. I'm sales day started interruptI think you got a problem. Yeah, it's immediately snaps you out of thepattern. Yeah, and you have a great one to you did thisto me when we first met. I'm going to put you on the spyhere. You called me up and you did something like Hey, not tosales DNA. You guys are doing this train well, like, why areyou differ? Why should I care? Why are you better? To seethat? Something like that, right, it was. It was something likethat. You remember that? I don't remember exactly, but yeah, Iusually I usually go for the shock and at the beginning of the call tobecause the typical stuff just gets you put into the typical frame of mind formost confidence and it's and it's much more fun. Yeah, yeah, howdo you help people get over it? Like, you know, those arevery aggressive way to start a call. You got to be like centered,confident, ready to go, otherwise it comes off really bad, like yeah, don't, I don't. Yeah, it's a good point. I don'tthink it's aggressive. So this is what I think. Sales is interesting.Right, if we want to get better at tennis, I mean Marque playsports at all. I do. What do you play? I'm a basketballguy. Okay. How'd you get good at basketball? How do you improve? I think my major in college was basketball, pick up basketball. Ijust played it. Done. You played a ton. And isn't it weirdthat when you played a game, because you played a ton, you gotbetter? Then Seales, we have a tendency to practice on our prospects.HMM. What we don't do normally, and what I help people with,is we actually role play and we practice so that we're not practicing on ourprospects. Sales people rarely do that. I do this thing in my workshopor have multiplication tables, flash cards. I hold them up, everyone shoutout the answer. Six Times, thirty, five times, three fifteen, threetimes, three nine semmy some information and it's like deer in the headlights. Why? We know it's coming, and so part of this is therole playing consistently every day for fifteen, twenty minutes. And in sales wejust don't do it, and so we feel like it's off balance. Butprospects have a good time with this when we use this approach, when we'rejust focused on a problem and if they don't have it, we're off tothe next one. I actually think it's it's more aggressive when we try tosell and would try to persuade. Yeah, I think when you look at itthat way, it definitely is interesting. So how does a busy sales leaderthat feels like their reps aren't already doing enough sales time like figure outhow to get this in? Like I mean I can hear people I've workwith and talk to all the time to be like yeah, sounds good,but like after two days my reps are going to like it anymore or it'snot going to yell benefits or how do you dispel those rumors? Well,a couple things I would I would first...

...ask them. If someone said thatto me, I would probably say, well, that that's not a problemwith what's making you think that it wouldn't benefit them. Because here's the thingwith it. Right, we make time for things we value, and soif their sales organization is not having a problem, we get back to theproblem. If the sales organization is hitting it out of the park, they'rebooking two thousand and twenty five s Ql's a rep a month, then they'reright. There is no reason change anything different. But if they're not andthey want to get better, practice is a really good way to get better. It's kind of common sense right, if we want to get it betterat anything. The reason Michael Jordan looked so good on a court is becausehe's done those free throws a bazillion times off the court. So it's wantto get better anything if we have to practice. I don't think anyone woulddisagree with that. And I think if I went into any sales organization anddid the math card drill, do what with your reps? Hold Up,I don't have a budget. Hold Up, send some information. Hold Up,I got to talk to my boss. Someone says to me, I gotto talk to my boss. Like, Mark, what do you say?Let's just let's just mark. I this sounds good. I got totalk to my boss. Hey, Joshua, listen, I know it is alwaysgood idea to talk to your boss, but usually when somebody says that's me, it means they're not comfortable with making the next decision. Like,let's talk about what makes you you're uncomfortable with, so I can talk aboutthat, like your bosses are going to help you overcome with it. Youare comfortable with. Okay. So mark and I have different approaches, butthe bottom line is mark has an answer. Because why mark? You've heard thathow many times in your sales career? Yeah, million times, a milliontime. And that's the point. We could debate what how to respondto it when some one says to me, I have to check with my boss. So you know, I got to check with my boss. ToJadash, she's my wife. Hold like Jane's it okay, if mark takesa call, you know. So we have we have different we have differentapproaches, but it's the same idea, is that you have these you haveto know you I have a book. You have to know your lines,and so I think practice is super, super important in getting people comfortable,because if you know your lines, nothing can really draw you. I'm nota big fan of scripts because I want to be loose by I'm a fanof practice and role play. I would argue that I understand what you're talkingabout with the scripts, but that like what you just heard me do onthe spot. That is my script. At some point you have to codifywhat you say as a resident by this is what I'm saying. It mightnot be with you say, Josh, and might be what you know Samsays, but it is what I say and I'm going to go to itand when you hold on my flash card, I'm going to come with that andbring with confidence because I know it works. Yeah, I want toclarify what I said. I'm a big believer in scripts to codify, butnot to read when you're on the call. Yeah, right, because you sounda little scripty. So I recommend you know, committing it to memoryand not also the one thing you talked about earlier, like, listen,if you do a twenty to twenty, twenty five sals or sqls or whateveryou call them. I would even take it one step further. Is Likeyou might be delivering twenty meetings a month, but how many of them are actuallyclosing? How many of them do the a's actually accept and turn intopipeline? Like take it one step further, because I guarantee you coming at thecall in this way and doing these negative questions and starting with the oneproblem instead of the playing vanilla stuff is going to lead your a. he'sbeing happier. Is it get better quality? I couldn't agree with look like wetalked about. I call us the motivation meter. Right one to ten. The girls a great example. Right I was at a tool I'm notbuying a grill. Why book the meeting man put me in the nurture trackand when both sides go out or when I have a party for twelve,and when I'm more motivated. We have to get really good sales. Peoplework really hard, they talk a lot. The reps will, the prospects willtell you how motivated they are. I'm really good when I'm on aprequel call, within about six or seven minutes pretty much, but I'm aperson of one. I don't have a whole team. I got to makereally good use of my time. Yeah, so if someone's not out of aseven, eight, nine or ten, it's fine. I know that.In about six minutes I was just on a pretty I'm just on adisco. Called before this. The guy was out of for and I putin my own nurturer track and and I...

...was done. There's no following up, there's no chasing. He asked me to send them information. That wasdone. It was it was over, it was finished, you know,and that's fine. He's in the nurture track and if he gets to beat a seven or eight because he's been seeing my content or my wife's stuff, he'll call me again. But I'm not spending my time on peep.Here's the key thing. Mark. I need to spend time from my business. I need to spend time with people that are going to buy this week. Yeah, for outreach, maybe the sales cycles a little longer. Likewhat's the typical outreach sales cycle? A couple months, three days. SoI. So here's the thing with outreach. If I was an outreach STRRA A, I only if I'm an str for outreach, I'm only booking meetingsfor mark, if he's my a for people that are closing in sixty days. Yeah, and so, Mark, whenever I book a meeting with you, I might be booking less than all the other SDRs, but you're goingto know when I see someone up, they're at edit or nine or ten. Yeah, people are going to want Josh's meeting. So before we go, let me get you to kind of review the formula of starting a coldcall. Give us, like the step why you're really great at this,the one for you have a great start to a call call. Yeah,so step number one. Let's have the right intent. The intent isn't tobook a meeting. The intent is to see if someone has a problem thatyou can help them solve and the answer might be now. So thing numberone. Thing number two is we have to understand the problem. A lotof reps say they have the best sales enablement platform. That's not a problem. And so if you don't understand the problem, and you might not becauseyou've never done the job before, you have to understand the problem and there'stwo ways to do that, to the best ways. One way is talkto some customers and understand what they were struggling with before they decided to buyyour thing. The second best way is to actually shadow customers for a day. You have to get their lingo. If you don't know their world,it's going to be really hard. If you using marketing fluff, it's notgoing to be as effective. Just to quick aside, and I know we'reon number two, but when I worked in my last company they were likewe solve, we say hur professionals time and money. That's how people talk. When we interviewed them they said we wanted to be less frazzled during openand Roma. We want a fewer people banging out our door asking us thesame questions about their benefits. That's the language we're looking for, a calledcrispy language, crispy problem language. You got to get that. So that'sthing number two. Thing number three, before we get into call call mindsetstuff, I gotta believe like deep in my heart, like you do.Mark. I mean I don't know if you guys know this. I hopeI'm not telling tales out of school, but you are a believer or outreach. I mean you were. You kind of were such a believer that youpretty much were commissioned only for a while. Yeah, so I hope I'm nottelling tales out of school here, but that to me is belief.Yeah, and you got to believe in your heart of hearts that what you'redoing can help someone else kick more ass in a very deep way. Andonly you can answer that question. And if you don't feel that very deepwell, you're never going to be as good as you can be. That'sthing number three. Take number four is when we make a call call,we gotta have a little fun and we gotta be a red X as they'vetried sense right, we got to use an opener like what we just talkedabout. There's there's a lot of different openers, but the one we justuse was I god, I'm so sorry. I think got a problem. Andthen we gotta using that the sort of negative questioning technique from Chris boss, say to them you know what that problem is. saw that you havethis unleashed conference. Guys, I was going to buy a bunch of seat. Looks like an awesome conference. I think I might even go. Igotta I got an unusual way that you might have not thought it before,to move more tickets, like maybe a couple hundred. You probably sold outright now. She's just hang up the phone. That's a lot of fancylanguage there, but what I'm doing is I'm testing to see if there's aproblem and if they say we're completely sold out in this case, there's nothingelse to do right at for this particular case. Right other cases where somesays we're got that covered, I might say, well, well, Icovering that. WHO's doing that? I have you consider this. If weconsider that, I can go a little...

...bit deeper, but to keep itsimple. And then the final step in the cold call is to link whatthey told you to how you might be out. I'm so glad I called. That's exactly type of thing we you know, if I could show youmark how I could move two hundred more tickets in the next twenty days,would it be worth talking or should I just are? Is Not something you'reinterested in right now, right, and that's how you kind of kind ofbooked the meeting. But that's not a little bit of a structure for you? Yeah, well, Josh, Hey, we need to do another one ofthese soon about mindset. You have some awesome stuff's specific calls to goover, but as always, you drop in the knowledge you're going to bewith us at unleash on March ten through twelve. Right unleash. Can Iplug the book doing please? Sales DNA DOT colas badass. The problem thissolves are it's two problems. One, I can't get conversations with people asmany as I want and to I'm having conversations, but I'm hearing I wantto think it over far too many times. There are sixty seven plays in thatbook that I've used over the course of fifteen years to do those twothings as well as but I've used my clients and I've seen top one percentperformers doing they're all in the book and I add new plays every single month. Go check it out. Sales dnacom slash badass. Yeah, and he'sgonna Josh's gonna be in one of our tracks and on Lee she's going togive a thirty minute talk to obviously be around and you know, just forme, I talked to sales leaders and sales professionals multiple times every day ofthe week and Josh's like what literally one of my favorite people to talk to. You always makes me understand a little bit of the science and a littlebit of like what's going on in my brain and it gives me this reallypractical way to kind of like nail it in practice as I'm doing it.So do too. Can't thank you enough for being on again. Can't waitto see it on leash. We'll book another podcast here, seeing about mindset. Looking forward to it. Thanks so much, Mark. I see Joshall right. Hey, thanks everybody for listening. This is another sales engagementpodcast episode. We'll see you next time. This was another episode of the salesengagement podcast. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes, resources andthe book on sales engagement coming soon. To get the most out of yoursales engagement strategy, make sure to check out outreach die I oh, theleading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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