The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 8 months ago

3-Part Framework for Career Growth w/ Kyle Norton

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Growth is the only thing that matters.

Given that, we need to be more intentional about what and how we’re trying to grow.

In this episode, I interview Kyle Norton, Head of Revenue, Canada at Shopify, about career growth strategies.

What we talked about:

  • There’s no getting around the need for hard work
  • Kyle’s 3-part framework for career growth
  • How he teaches his team deep learning using strategies from mixed martial arts

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Sales Engagement in your favorite podcast player.
 

Hey folks, it's under me born. Now, before jumping in, I've got to tell you about on leasttwo thousand and twenty one. On May eleven through thirteen, were focusing onhow to win together in the new sales era. You'll learn new go tomarket strategies, get deeper funnel insides and actional takeaways for your entire org fromrevenue leaders, Highgro startups and fortune five hundred companies and are very special guestsor none other than Guy Raz the podcaster and author of how I built thisand carry lawns, the first female fighter pilot in the US Navy. ComeSave Your seat for this high energy online event at only stock outreach. Thatioh. Now let's get into it. Welcome to the sales engagement podcast.This podcast is brought to you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, andthey just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach.Well does outreach? Learn how the team follows up with every lead in recordtime after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see howoutreach runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more using their ownsales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customerbase. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good asthey do. Head to outreach, to io on outreach to see what theyhave going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome backeveryone to the sales engagement podcast. If this is your first time listening,why, extra welcome to you. You picked a good episode to cut yourteeth in this podcast. I've been certainly excited for this one. I amjoined by Kyle Norton, the head of revenue for Canada at a little companyyou all will know called shopify. Kyle, welcome, man, thanks for havingme excited to have you on chop offy. Obviously arguably Canada's coolest companyright now. I think I'll go ahead and say that I think you canclaim to be Canada's coolest success story right now. So I want to startat the beginning. You know, head of revenue, self proclaimed schools companyand in Canada. How did this all come to be, man, what'sthe Superhero Origin Story of Kyle Norton? So grew up where you are,in Vancouver, and I mean in Toronto. The last twelve thirteen years. Somethinglike that started at a school. I went to business school, fellinto sales like most, and up in this industry and was selling conferences andevents at a pretty crappy company to be honest, just sling in events andsponsorships, and it was like a hardcore boiler room type environment, super oldschool. I had a stack of paper leads in a phone on my desk. This is two thousand and eight. This isn't like the S, butthat was the attitude. Like you sold on the phone, sending email wasfor a whims type type of thing. I was there for four and ahalf years and just got like the hardcore sales education. It was all allthe acumen you could possibly want, because you're selling a product that wasn't allthat great. People who knew about the event. You actually wanted people notto know about our brand because generally when they knew, it wasn't super positive. So, like you were, you were selling uphill. But because Istarted right after the or during the financial crash, company trank and grew,which meant I got an opportunity to move into leadership earlier than I probably shouldhave and was a manager of a small team that had a couple teams andyou know, by the time I was three years into my career I hadfour teams under me and and was doing a bunch of stuff. Again,like right place, right time. Wasn't really prepared for it, but itwas an awesome opportunity, you know, to learn a lot of from alot of great salespeople and to learn by...

...doing and make a bunch of mistakes. Actually left the corporate world to I started a mixed martial Arts Academy withthe business partner and did that for a full time for a year and ahalf. Missed sales badly, so came back and went down the technology routeand have been building and rebuilding SASS sales teams for the last six or sevenyears and most recently shopify started to build our point of sale teams. Soshop if I wanted to get more aggressive about taking its retail products a marketand skilled a team from sort of six to sixty and change over the courseof eighteen months. We just did a big REORG and now those teams aredispersed regionally and so my new remit is in Canada, but for all shopifyproducts. So our point of sale product, our core products plus, which isfor sort midmarket and enterprise customers and our money products. So we're inmonths three here of building that and and I own sales partnerships and a couplerelated things like I see in Rabops, etc. Wow, heck of ajourney. It's funny. There's there's a decent amount of parallels in our ourstories. I I similarly. I I've sold a lot of sponsorships. That'swhat I was doing at salesaccer and noting that that line of business it canbe a lot of work. I've also, in a previous role, definitely beenpart of those boiler room environments that you you only see in the yeah, the movies. Now, thank goodness. Yeah, I guess there's a there'san interesting point of view because I look at those times and I'm like, Oh man, I don't wish that on anyone. Like thank goodness thoseare going by the wayside. But there is a part of me like likeyou you said, is the business acumen that you pick up and the salesskills that you pick up only based on the peer of volume and number ofconversations and different people you have to interact with. You can't get that kindof training anywhere right like you could. You could go through every sales trainerscourse imaginable. But you know, I remember back then I literally did thisexercise where I mapped out I think it was forty seven different personality types.That's how many people I was talking to. I started to bucket what these peoplewere like and make my own like kind of system. Do you thinkthat this new generation you maybe skips some of that? You know, forbetter or worse, is going to be missing some of those key elements thatmaybe you do learn when you're in that just like that slog yeah, it'stradeoffs, for sure. You know, you definitely by not getting that typeof experience. There's things you don't get. You don't learn to hard close andchase every deal with abandon and and feel like your job is always onthe line and the pressure that it comes with it. You know, there'sthere are certainly things you learn and sharpen and and it was awesome growing forme. But with where the world is going, there's also some things thatI think you learn and today's Day, which can seem soft, you know, if you want to put it that way. But at the same time, you know, if as organizations. We want to deliver a better buyingjourney and when in a different way. I think we should be okay withsome of that at going by the wayside. It's, you know, they're greatwar stories and I certainly am like proud of those days, but there'slots of things that you're learning by doing and str BEDR smbae selling a goodproduct that could be inbound generated. You know, there's a there's a lotthat comes from that. You learn the product in depth, you learn tohave a different type of customer conversation. So neither's necessarily better or worse.Something, you know was formative for me, but I certainly think we can builddifferent now. There's no way to...

...get away with what we did backthen, and GT crowd or trustee pilot would have prevented that company from sellingin the way that we did. But yeah, good lessons learned and anyof that experiences just what you take. Take from it totally and thank goodnessour businesses aren't operating like like that anymore. I just wonder sometimes if there's away to almost like create these almost like training environments. I don't know, maybe we'll get there. Vraar like boiler rooms where you don't have tosubject the Cupsle to it. But I've worked. I've worked with my olduniversity who's building a sales course and a sale certification, and one of thethings that I strongly was pushing as a you need to get people exposure tothe phones so they can figure out if this is something they actually want todo or if sales in a tech company just sounds like fun. And soI was like, get them to dial for donations. If they can dosix or twelve months calling alumni for donations and they're coming out of that experiencegoing like yeah, I could, I could see myself doing this for thenext five years, then then you have a pretty good idea, because it'sreally hard to know now that sales is viewed more favorably than it was whenwe were coming up. Do you really want to do sales or do youlike the idea of it, and is this just the only way into atech company? So, if what's that filter, filter process at the frontend? So I'm hoping more universities can want to teach the business of salesmore and hopefully find ways to give people exposure to it to help them figureout if this is actually for them without needing to learn that in your firstfour months, as in stre just being absolutely terrified of picking up the phone. You know, that's a hard thing for folks to go through. Yeah, that's a great a great idea, and I think even companies could couldimplement that into their their training programs. If you don't want your drs callingit, if you have a small tam you don't want them calling into rightaway, like setting them up just to get over that fear of calling forlike donations of some sort, as it's pretty cool. Yeah, probably awhole other conversation sometimes. Yeah, about like also, is that like theonly way now to break into tech? On the business side, like there'snot a ton of junior roles except for, like, you know, being areand coming up that track, which I think we need to do abetter job as an industry of creating some some other junior roles. But butthis would be an argument. Yeah, we move off this topic, butyeah, this is a good point. This would be the argument to buildthat Bedr Roll in a way where you don't have to be a sales savage, you know, right, the way that business is done today I don'tneed to be Mr slick cold caller to be able to do the BDR rollreally well. I can be great at understanding the customer base. WHO's afit, who's not having really really targeted outreach and and you know, carefulpositioning. It's like yeah, okay, you're not as sharp on you know, these folks aren't as sharp on the phones anymore, but there's other waysto get things done and you know that Bedr. I'm a big proponent ofthat bedr function being an intake valve for the rest of the organization and usnot not having this position that if you're exploring an MS acsm roll, thenit's like, oh, this person doesn't want to be in sales and it'sa big question mark. That sort of old school mindset. You know whydon't build this function as an amazing intake valve to for you to understand thecustomer really well, get experience talking to people and thinking about the businesses yousupport, and then those people can go all sorts of places. CS IMPLEMENTATIONSC OPS. You know, we've we I've had people from my Bedr Orga trap if I end up in all sorts of different places and if youthink a little more holistically and take off the like. If you're not goinginto sales, they you're irrelevant. To me. Hat is still a littlemore prevalent than you'd like them. I...

...think that's a better place to be. That's a great, great call up. Now a great point. You canthere's so much that goes into it. Right you could be great at businessanalysis so that the messaging you're crafting for these companies fairly resonates. Youcould even be you see some medias that are excellent, like content creators whocreate their own little mini and found engines for themselves. So it is trueand it's cool to see it evolved past that the traditional view and lends itto the role. Last question I ask in your background, then, Iknow you have a bunch of interesting models that I want to get through,but this is more just a personal question, because I found my self in thisposition many times and I'm sure you haven't and still do. I thinkwe all do. If you're if you're growing, so you said, you'rekind at the right place right time. You're giving these opportunities to lead teamswhen maybe you didn't have as much experience. What were your levers to bridge thatdown. You know the other of course, there's books you can read, there's blogs you can do, there's yeah, even says go find andthen to or whatever. What we're like the actual things you did in yourjourney to bridge that gap. Bridget quickly and try and figure it out onthe fly. Yeah, it's not a new answer. It's books. Youknow, I read sales acceleration formula right when it came out, very earlyin my managementssler. Yeah, and and so, you know, that's stuffall just like you know, you just assume people know all those things.But at the time when that book was written, I was like wow,you know, hiring scorecard with, you know, a rigorous applicant funnel.This is this is amazing. So you know, there's a couple of thosebooks. Talent code by Daniel coyle. I tell people to to read madeto stick as another big one on how to create messaging. Not Not asales book, but one that has good frameworks. That I like. Andsales acceleration for me obviously like there was a d at the time I waswandering through the darkness and I read a lot of bad stuff to that aswell. But and then you know, a bunch of the standard stuff,good to great. How to win friends, you know, there's there's a wholelitany of great books to help navigate that journey. And it was sortof like a cheap code for me, like I would read something as awrap, like I would read something and I would get an idea. Iremember Reading Challenger. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to think about doing thisand and I'm going to change the way that I structure the opening onmy call and I had a process by which I was like acquiring insights.So because it was hard to understand the industries I was selling into. SoI would ask my prospects, Hey, I'm curious, like you, asyou look through the agenda, what we're talking about, like what's the thingthat we're not talking about that you think everybody's missing? And it gives peoplethat chance to put on there like smart person hat and show how much theyknow about something. And I still ask that same question to folks in adifferent way these days. And so I would write down those, like youknow, come more contra versial or more interesting perspectives, and I would rollthat back to the next person like, Hey, somebody was talking to wastalking about Bubba Bah, Bah Blah, and that was a great way forme to build my book of insights. That wasn't on some industry blog becauseobviously by the time it's on an industry blog it's old hat. So Ijust remember that experience of Reading Challenger, reading about in the structure, readingabout teach Taylor take control, and applying that teach thing Al Sud my conversationswere better. All a sudden I was getting way more deals to late stagesand it was just like magic. It was like, Oh, this islike I can just read these things and then try some stuff and all suddenI'm better at my job and I'm making more money and and it was justso such a powerful experience that when I was a manager, just reading everythingI could and you make a bunch of mistakes and you miss apply things andI wrote, you know, you read radical candor and then you're like Hey, God, I really just got I really like you, but like you'rereally bad at your job, and that was like my your first application ofradical candor. Yeah, yeah, and you know your crude with it,but honestly, that was so much of...

...it and I good mentors. Atthe time, like you know, it was a funny company and yet wehad really great leaders. My to the two guys that I learned from,Fran and Jason. You know, we're only a couple years older than meat the time. But like love the craft of sales and loved building peopleand that helped me a ton. You just read and then talk about it, try some stuff and that's it's good shortcut. Yeah, totally. Ihaven't actually read talent code or made to stick. So I've written standing andto check those out. And Yeah, bunch of the ones you mentioned.I my first bed program that I that I built. I won't even sayI built. It was basically just a bastardited it's version, sales acceleration formula, predictable revenue and trip for T Z, sale development playbook, all like Hodgepodged into this other version and it worked. And it's kind of crazythat you know these things, you can basically copy them and they'll work.And I also like this idea of just using other conversations to inform other company, using insights from other conversations to make yourself almost a pure smarter and otherconversations. One can say. I do that all the time on this podcast. You know I will episode and then drop it and got. What doyou think about that? It's interesting and it's a good it's a really goodtransition points for our conversation about career growth and the the I think the importantcall out, especially in today's environment where I think we're still trying to navigatethe fine line between having work life balance and having having a workplace that feelssustainable and also the reality of like hard work pays off. Like how dowe thread that needle? And and I think it's important to say before weget into the career stuff, you cannot expect extra ordinary career outcomes with ordinarywork ethic. It just you know, like you can you can expect andhope for growing your career by doing your nine hundred and twenty five and learningon the job, but there's always going to be somebody that is willing togo above and beyond and if they're working harder and progressing their skills faster.Like it's still a business at the end of the day and you're going togive that opportunity to the person that is putting in the effort. And sofor me that was such a huge thing. It's like I I was twenty twowhen I got my first team and the other guys that were in therunning were, you know, late s early s which, in that environment, was was very veteran and you know they'd be in at the company along time. And I just made it a really hard decision because I wascranking in terms of sales output and I made sure the numbers were there andI was just like building stuff and sharing it with my with my team membersand like really just demonstrating that I was going above and beyond. And youknow, it's sort of I don't think they were super pumped to promote meat the time because you know, it's such a big risk and and butI'd made that made it our choice and managed to get it so like it. I will say before we get into all the stuff, like you youjust have to work hard. It doesn't mean just smoking dials like that.That's not it. It's like put the effort into to working on yourself andand being great at your craft, and that's like the baseline for everything.Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And one thing I'll add it. Maybeyou agree with this, maybe you you don't, but also know, likewhen you're when you're working so hard, life is a little bit cyclical onlike a micro level and a macro level. So they'll be periods where you knowyou got it just okay, that's next three years. I'm sprinting forthree years, and then they'll be cycles where you know you're a little bitmore set up, you're not going for that big, big new push anymoreand and you're a little more comfortable and then you can rest, reassess andlike understand. So I think you know I there's a lot of t talkabout burnout now and things, and that's...

...super, super important, but knowthat, like, there will be natural periods when you put up that muchwork where they'll be time to reassess. You do agree with that. Didyou have periods in your life that you know you could ease off the gasa little bit? Yeah, I mean the first ten years of my careerwere sprint. I come competitive by nature and and I love what I do, like I love sales, I love building teams and investing in my folks. So it wasn't it wasn't hard all the time. You know, thereare certainly periods where we're hard and you bring it home and you're really likeyou're getting burned out, for sure. But I was pretty pedal to themetal for a long time. I've, you know, and you just haveto learn it's either you sprint and rest, and there's all. You always haveto find those periods of rest. I've never really had a you know, a year or a two year span where I'm more stable. I've alwaysjust done build, build, work. But for me it's it's it's abouthow to do the other things to keep yourself going. So, like Iread why we sleep and I went from being like, Oh, like,I'm just a guy who only needs five or six hours of sleep and Iwould routinely sleep five hours a night and I read that book it's like,Oh, you're basically giving yourself cancer and killing yourself early, and here's whyyou should sleep eight hours a night and here's how to do it well.And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go do that. Yeah,you know you can. You'd be surprised by how hard you can push yourselfif you're trying to take care of yourself in the right ways. And likeI'm a spotty meditator, but when things get hard like that, part ofmy routine comes back and and it's like a more standard practice. So Itotally agree. Yeah, and the other framing is you can learn and monetize. So there's points of your career where I'm like diving into something, I'mreally focused on learning a whole bunch, and maybe there's Times that I've like, okay, now I want to monetize on all that learning that I've done. Like you go, take the early startup thing and you know you're they'relike, oh, we can only pay you this, it's half of yourmarket worth. But like you'll look at all these options that are never goingto be worth anything. But you know, if you view those periods of time, these are my learning years and then you know you want to findsome monetization years to follow. That's another sort of career framework that I foundhelpful. That's a right a great framework and way to look look at it. And sometimes, yeah, there's this trap of a lot of people getinto this monetize and then monetize and the monetized and they just keep they forgetto learn case and they're always striving for that and I find that's sometimes avery quick route to unhappiness. You find yourself and waters where you don't reallylike fully know what's going on, you don't feel like you're driving like asmuch value as you could. So I like that that framework. Okay,what other things? You know many listeners on this would would look at yourcareer and be like that's what I want. So what would you say to thosepeople? Maybe you're like, you know, just got your first managementrole and I'm trying to do some career mapping. I'm trying to a figuremyself out personally, grow as a person and then I'm trying to grow asa career. Do you have some some advice or tips for those books?Yeah, so I can talk through framework that I give my team and it'sa way that my managers can help their folks think about their careers and foreverybody individually to think about their careers and sort of number one the preframing isthat like don't expect to extraordinary results from ordinary work ethic. Like what areyou willing to give up to get there? Yeah, everybody wants to be aCRRO, for sure, but not a lot of people want to godo that, do that work, and you have to have a really honestconversation about with yourself about like what what is important and what you're willing togive up. So that that sort of piece one. The second so theframework that I want to chat through is...

...three things. So there's three driversto career growth. One is skills development, so that's both career skills and personalskills. To is impact. Are you driving results and impact with yourorganization, with your team's and the third is luck and or opportunity. Givinga shout out to one of my old bosses, Jason. It's, youknow, good luck is when hard work meets opportunity, and he said thisthing super early. It's sort of Cliche, but it makes a lot of sense. And so how do you how do you get luck on your side? You can have some control over so we can talk about it. Sothe first piece about that, about the models. Growth. At the endof the day, growth is the only thing that matters. It solves foreverything. If you're getting better at your job, if you're getting better atyour job and focusing on getting better at the craft, not just closing moredeals and it's I'm just going to make more dials or I'm going to I'mgoing to create more pipeline. But if you're really trying to intentionally get better, and you know, I reference talent code and they talk a lot aboutdeep learning. So how do you focus on getting better at smaller amounts ofthings over longer periods of time? So internally with my team's we pick onetheme to go deep on for a month or six weeks and we don't moveoff of that until we feel like we're getting better, because then there's acritical mass, there's an organized stational momentum around getting better at that thing andwe should all individually know what those things are in our skills that we wantto work on. What is the thing that I'm really invested in? Yourtimeline rows as your as you're sort of more senior, like what am Ispending the next quarter on getting better at? And if you just focus on gettingbetter at stuff, things solve themselves. Sorry, just started end up there. I just want to because I think that's I really like this idea, particularly in such a noisy world where there's so many distractors, so manpotentialities. I can go learn this. I could learn this. When yousay your team focuses on one theme, do you have your whole team focusingon that theme, or each individual, you know, picks a theme andthat's what they roll with for a month. So we pick a theme as ateam. So all of the enablement content. I'll use an example fromfrom sort of queue for discovery. Or I don't know when this was,but we wanted to get better discovery and you know everybody's everybody wants to getbetter discovery, but then you know you have some don't go deep to reallydo it. So we spend six weeks in, if you think about Idon't learning principles like how do we how do we teach things in ways thatare more more tangible? So for me, one of the enablement frameworks I like, which I borrow from mixed martial arts, is this idea of introduce, isolate, integrate, and there's different frameworks for this. And so thefirst thing that we do in this sort of its week period is we're goingto introduce a topic. So how do you give your team a topic sothey can intellectually explore it? How do they how do they learn about it? So, especially in a digital by defaults like a distributed work environment.So what's The preread? Am I giving you podcast books? Is it reviewinga bunch of your calls? What is the pre work I'm asking you todo and the learning to come into the the live learning environment, the livelearning environment. What it should never be shown tel. You should never justhave an enablement or a sales leader get up there and like pitch a bunchof there like teach a bunch of stuff. That can all be done ahead oftime. That's your preread, that's your pre watch. But what then? How do we explore the topic? How do we introduce the topic inthat session? What are the interactive activities and workshops that we're doing in thattime together? And that's usually in small groups and break groups. And thenthere's a good framework to like, what are the best ways for you toget to know new learnings and like regret, rememorize and regurgitate. Is the lowestform of this, and the highest form is, can you create somethingnew with this piece of learning? So...

...now we're getting into introducing that topicin a more tangible way. So that second thing is isolate. So nowthat we've taught our team a little bit about the topic, they've intellectually exploredit. Now we're really getting into how do we how do we practice thisnew skill in an isolated environment? Don't practice on the playing field is sortof the saying. And if you read the talent code which I was talkingabout, how do we how do we construct environments where we're doing deliberate practiceand deep learning? And so that's if I'm if I'm trying to teach discovery, I'm not saying, okay, Scott, you're going to do discovery and thenwe're going to mock role play a full twenty minute conversation. No,we're just going to do the discovery thing like over and over and over andover and and as a it's really important that we teach our team to begood training partners so they can help give the right feedback to their to theirlearner. And I'm trying to keep you in the learning zone. So welearn best when we're about sixty to eighty percent successful with that new task.So if I'm learning a piece of music and I can just rip it offand I do a hundred percent of that song correctly, I'm not really learninganything. I'm not creating new Myelin, which is what I'm which is whatthe brain is doing. To learn a new skill, but if I'm alsomissing every second note, I'm also not really learning. So as instructors oras the role player partner, which can be your sales wrap, I'm tryingto give make make this situation hard enough so that you're between sixty to eightypercent successful. And so that's my isolate phase of this. And so I'mbeing really intentional about the learning opportunities that I'm building here, and you haveto be really intentional as enablement sales leadership, to build the right things. It'snot okay, now, just like mack call a bunch of like randomsituations. No, it's like I want you to do this and I wantthis. Is How to make that situation harder or easier. You're going toask the basic questions, or I'm going to give you the basic answers tothe hey, tell me about your business. How are you trying to grow?And then you know, here's how to make that toffer well, andyou know, like, we're happy with where we're at. So we don'treally have any big business goals. That would be an example. Make thatlearning situation harder and make the learner try a little bit something new and thenthe integrate piece is, so now how do we integrate this new skill intoa live fire environment where I'm doing it in the real world? And thenthe key there is the feedback loop. So once you're doing it in thereal world, how do you measure and give really specific feedback? And sothis is the later parts of this six week journey, or you know you'llget to that by week three and then week three through six or all sortof integrated real world feedback and and that's all of the great conversational analytics tools. So an example of then how how can you integrate with even more specificityand make it fun? So in the discovery example, we ran a contestand part of the scoring criteria was you need to make your buy or saythat's a really good question, and so the Gong tracker we used was that'sa really good question. So it's a great way to make it fun butalso measure it. How do you measure good discovery? You know, couldbe talk, listen, ratio, but it's not always easy. So wejust kept it simple and as many times as you can get your buyers tosay that's a really good question. Like you know you're you're doing okay,and that's an integrated live feedback mechanism. And then the coaching for that wholeperiod is on discovery and the coaches, the sales leads, are instructed.Hey, like, don't really veer off and and do a bunch of callcoaching on random other stuff, like unless it's really really like mission critical.This, this is causing US poor outcomes. Like just focus on this thing.And so if you steal that and then all the all the questions thatthe reps are asking one another and the things you share and slack and thefeedback they're getting one on one in the activities you doing and then the spiffyou run on top of it, if you have this critical mass of activitiesthat are happening just on this one learning...

...topic, you'll be really surprised withthe amount of improvement you can make in six weeks. So that is quitea long explanation on learning depth. That was gold man, I love thatyou pulled this framework from mixed martial arts. Introduce, isolate, integrate. Ithink that's a great way to frame it. Think watching for that.That's a really good question. You know, a conversations going well, that's ifthat's comes out. Okay, I want to get to the last two. So impact, impact, and then luck. Let's Yeh through those twoas well. Yeah, so impact is pretty straightforward. Do really great atyour job, be at the top of leaderboard, but get it done anddo it right, obviously being the key there. And then make sure you'refinding ways to show those things. So you if we, if we lookat the luck component of the model, you can make your own luck byincreasing your visibility. So on the girl's side, I'm trying to get better, I'm trying to learn a bunch of skills and I'm being intentional about that. But then I'm also trying to build the skills I need for the nextjob that I think I want. And so that's like reading the leadership booksand finding opportunities to do some buddy mentorship or take on a project. Youknow, hey, we want to rework these cadences. Then then you're goingto use that opportunity to put your hand up and be like, oh,like, I can write a sequence, like let me take a crack atit. So, because you're now building the skill you need to be agood good sales manager, and I'm also trying to demonstrate and and show theimpact I can build as a sales manager. So I'm making the impact, I'mbeing somebody that can be relied upon and I'm trying to show that Ican do the next thing. And then the last sort of third part ofthis framework is is luck an opportunity? So you can make your own luckby being in the right places at the right time. So that could bebeing in a quickly scaling startup. That's the typical one. Everybody thinks ifthey're early in a start up, they'll be the VP of sales in likesix months, just by very might be, but you'll probably get fired in nineyeah, yeah, exactly. So is it a high growth environment?Is An environment that has a really well defined crew development track? Do theypromote from within? Do you have a leader, like are you going thereto learn from a specific leader that is super duper critical, like more thanthe company, you want to know who you're working for and I optimized forthat in my shop. If I career heavily, you know, it isimportant for me to find like values alignment and somebody that I felt like Icould really get a lot from and learn a lot from. And so ifyou think about like what are the things, where the places that Opportunity will presentitself? That's how you can control those variables. And then it's visibility, its sponsorship. So how am I building the right relationships internally and andoffering to help with the people that are that? I need to be seenas a high potential candidate for the next thing. And then a lot.And then the other piece of it is patients. Like you know, we'renot patient as people as a sales professions, so that's a harder one. Butunderstanding that, you know, there's these ebbs and flows. You talkedabout sort of sprint and rest. The something else I say a lot islike things will ebb and flow and you'll get looked over or somebody will elsewill get chosen for a role and it feels like you know, there's nopossibility the next thing. And if you're in and and high growth environment orenvironment that changes, then you'd be surprised how quickly things turn. And havinga bit of patients to stick things out and focus on the previous stuff.So it's like, okay, I'm not getting to do the job I reallywant to do. I want to manage a sales seem. I want tomanage a sales team and you don't get that opportunity, will instead of poutingabout it and going and looking somewhere else. So it's like, okay, then, now I've got another six or nine months to just like go crazyon learning. Now, not learning on the job, because I'm not inthat role, but what can I do to prepare myself and and maybe thisis my like rest time. I can...

...do this job in my sleep.I've been a BDR for a year now. Like the job's automatic. Okay,that's like use your rest time because, you know, when you're a newAE, you're sprinting, so like conserve your energy, get you know, like get yourself healthy, do all those things. Learn, learn andlearn, and then when the next day you roll opens up, you're readyto go. You're rested and ready to rock. I love that. Ilove that. Couldn't agree more with the leader that you work for. It'severything. I feel like that then becomes more and more true even as mycareer goes. I look back at at moments in it which was in thecompany. It wasn't the opportunity, wasn't the industry, it was always theleader that I was working under. What what would help get to that kindof next next day, so so important. You also said something that should bewritten on on everyone's wall. Should be like a poster to make yourown luck by creating more visibility for yourself. But that's it, right, likethat's I often say. And there's ways you can do this internally.There's ways you can do this externally. You know, you can create mediaassets, whether it's like a podcast or a newsletter or Linkedin or speaking atplace. Is it's kind of like when you do that and you make yourselfvisible, you're creating these beacons for like interesting problems and interesting people to findyou that you can can solve and build with. And you can do asimilar thing internally at your organizations as well. So I really like like that onething to build on that, because it's this something I hear a lot. It's like, Oh, like, I just don't like playing politics.I hate politics. I don't think anybody likes politics unless you're bit of asociopath. So so it's easy to complain about. It's like, Oh,like, I don't want to just like do this, to kiss up tothe to the boss or whatever. It's like yeah, totally, like it'sa weird thing to do and it's it feels weird to just like post abunch of stuff on on Linkedin so that people see you and you can complainabout that and say it's like silly, but this is the way the worldis and you, as a pragmatist, you either just like do it andleverage the world for what it is and quit trying to hope that it's goingto be something that it isn't, or you know, you're going to letyourself get get a little less lucky. Hey, man, couldn't agree more. It's particularly in sales. Again, there's so many different offshoot episodes.Will have to have you back that. There's another. Okay, there's anotherinteresting thing that pop hand. There's like, particularly sales, there's kind of thisculture of just hit your member, you just hit your number, allyour problems go away. But like now you really if you want an extraordinarycareer, that's the ordinary side, like you said, that's the ordinary effortof hitting your number. You've got to find ways to make yourself physical,contribute in other ways, have impact beyond that. Man, this like makeit make it dead simple for me like, Oh, I know Scott can manageteam because everybody already comes to Scott to answer their questions and Scott's theone sharing interesting new approaches to this deal, or Scott's doing this. If youjust look, if you just show yourself to be somebody that can clearlydo the next thing, then things get a lot easier for you, andit in again, like this is the other really important thing about being apragmatist is that's all probabilities and why a third of this sort of model islike luck will in. Even if you do all the right things, there'sstill only a percentage probability that the right outcome, and so like. Ifyou read thinking and bets by any Doke, obviously this is like a well documentedline of thinking. You're still it's still might not go the right way. There's a chance, but if you just keep doing the right things,like stick to the process, like it's process over results. Don't play theresults. Did you do the right things?...

Was I learning? Was I doing? was I putting up the right metrics? Was I contributing outside ofit? Okay, like I got passed over because you know, it's theboss is cousin and that's all unfair. There's going to be a lot ofthose breaks in life. But if you but never let it dissuade you fromcontinuing to do the right things, because you see this, and more soin June, more junior folks, but they don't get the promotion. Andmaybe there was some like coaching feedback there that was legit, or maybe itwas just like wrong timing, and then they creator and you know, it'scutting off your nosees bite your face instead. It's just like, was I executingmy process? was I doing the right things? Yes, okay,that's that's all I can control and I'm just going to keep doing this andI know that this will pay off over the long term. Great, greatadvice and I know you're a busy guy. I've kept you a couple minutes over, but I do want to leave this question because everyone's super busy.They're probably multitasking as that the listeners are listening to this. Maybe they're they'redialing as they've got this promotivation, they're working out, you know, dealingwith kids, whatever it is. If people forget everything that we just talkedabout, because there was a lot of a lot coming at you there.There's a lot of gold everything, but three things. What would you wantthose three things to be? Growth is the only thing that matters. NumberOne. Call One, be be intentional about what you're what you're trying togrow in like own that own your own development. Be Intentional about what you'regetting better at and put in the work too, is extraordinary. Career resultsdo not come with ordinary effort and ordinary work ethic. And then, threes, trying to make your own luck. So find ways to stack the deckin your favor, but always know that it's still a game of probabilities.Even if you do all the right things, maybe you tip yourself tip things inyour favor. Seventy thirty, which means three out of ten times thishappens. It's not going the way that you want to. But never getdissuaded from your process. Learn, put up numbers, try to be visiblein the right ways and be in the right types of companies with the rightleaders. Things will turn out really well on the long run. I loveit, Ma'am well, Kyle, thank you so much for for hanging outwith me, for hanging out with the listeners. Truly one of one ofmy favorite conversations I've had in a while, so thank you for I can seewhy you'd had such an incredible career. Man. I'm excited to see youcontinue to to crush it at shopify and beyond. And for all thoselisteners, thank you so much for hanging out with us. I know youprobably learned a ton. I know I did. I've got a page fullof notes. That's how I know it's a good one and we'll see younext episode, next loot. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front of more eyes and ears, please leaveus a shining five star review. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book on sales engagement. To get the most out of yoursales engagement strategy. Make sure to check out outreach. That ioh,the leading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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