The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 6 months ago

3-Part Framework for Career Growth w/ Kyle Norton


Growth is the only thing that matters.

Given that, we need to be more intentional about what and how we’re trying to grow.

In this episode, I interview Kyle Norton, Head of Revenue, Canada at Shopify, about career growth strategies.

What we talked about:

  • There’s no getting around the need for hard work
  • Kyle’s 3-part framework for career growth
  • How he teaches his team deep learning using strategies from mixed martial arts

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Sales Engagement in your favorite podcast player.

Hey folks, I' enter me born now beforejumping in I've got to tell you about I'm least two thousand and twenty oneon man. Eleven thrugthiteen were focusing on Hawto wing together in thenew sales era, you'll learn you go to marces strategies, get deeper, funalinsides, an Actiomal takewast foryour entire, or from revenue leaders at Hig,Gro, startups and fortune five hundred companies and are very special guestsor none other than Guyras. The podcaster author of how I built thisand carry laurence. The first female fiter pilot in the US baby come SAV herseat for this high energy online event at only stot out reached totio. Now,let's get into it. Welcome to the sales engagement ofPODCAST. This podcast is brought you by outreach, the leading sales engagementplatform and they just launched outreach on ouriage the place to learnhow outreach well does nout reach learn how the team follows up with every leadin record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can alsosee how outre twins account based plays, manages reps and so much more usingtheir own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulld fromout reach processes and customer base when you're done you'll be able to doit as good as they do had to outreach don io on out reach to see what theyhave going on now, let's get into today's episode, hello and welcome back everyone to thesales engagement podcast. If this is your first time listening, whyl extrawelcome to you, you picked a good episode to cut your teeth in thispodcast. I've been certainly excited for this one. I amjoined by Kyle Martin,the head of revenue for Canada at a little company. You all will knowcalled Shopifi Kyl welcom man, thanks for having me excited to have you onshopify, obviously argue of like Canada's coolest company right now. Ithink I'll go ahead and say that I think you can claim to be Canada'scoolest success story right now, so I want to start at the beginning. Youknow head of revenue, selfpoquitav Chool this company in Canada. How didthis all come to be man? What's the the Superhero origin story of Kyle Laren sogrew up where you are in Vancouver and I've been in Toronto, the last twelvethirteen years, something like that started out of school. An went tobusiness school, fell into sales like most end up in this industry and wasselling conferences and events at a pretty crappy company. To be honest,just slinging events and sponsorships- and it was like a hardcore boiler, roomtype environment, super old school I had a stack up paper leads in a phoneon my desk. This is two thousand and eight. This isn't like the S, but thatwas the attitude like you sold on the phone, sending emails for wimps typetype of thing. I was there for four and a half years and just got like thehardcore sales education. It was all all the acumen you could possibly want, becauseyou're selling a product that wasn't all that great people who knew aboutthe event. You actually wanted people not to know about our brand becausegenerally when they knew it wasn't super positive. So, like you were, youwere selling uphill, but because I started right after the orduring the financial crash company trank and grew, which meant I got anopportunity to move into leadership earlier than I probably should have and was a manager of a small team that hada couple teams- and you know by the time I was three years into my career.I had four teams under me and was doing a bunch of stuff again like right placeright time, wasn't really prepared for it, but it was an awesome opportunity.You know it's to learn a lot of from a lot of greatsales people and... learn by doing and make a bunch ofmistakes actually left the corporate world to. I started O Maxe Martial ArtsAcademy with the business partner and did that for a fulltime for a year anda half missed sales badly, so came back and went to down the technology routeand have been building and rebuilding SASS sales teams for the last six orseven years, and most recently, Shapifi started to buildour point of sale teams so SROP. If I wanted to get more aggressive abouttaking its retail prouct to market and scaled the team from sort of six tosixty and change over the course of eighteen months, we just did a bigReorg, and now those teams are dispersed regionally, and so my newremit is in Canada, but for all Shopifi products, so ippoint a sale product orcore products plus which is foror midmarket and enterprise customers andour money products so we're in month, three here of building that and I ownsales partnerships and a couple related things like sc and Rabops, etc. Wowl back of a journey, it's funny,there's there's a decent amount of parallels in our our stories. I similarly I've sold a lot ofsponsorships. That's what I was doing at at sales, tacker noning, that thatline of business. It can be a lot of work. I've also ID a previous role,definitely been part of those boiler, room environments that you you only seein that yeah the movies. Now, thank goodness yeah. I guess there's athere's an interesting point of view, because I look at those times and I'mlike Oh man. I don't wish that on. Anyone like, thank goodness, those aregoing by the wayside, but there is a part of me like, like you, you said, isthe business acumin that you pick up and the saleskills that you pick upsolely based on the Pur volume and number of conversations at differentpeople? You have to interact with you can't get that kind of traininganywhere right like you. Could you could go through every sales trainerscourse imaginable, but you know I remember back then I literally did thisexercise where I mapped out. I think it was forty seven different personalitytypes, that's how many people I was talking to. I started to Buck it e whatthese people were like and make my own like kind of system. Do you think thatthis new generation, you maybe skips some of that you know for better orworse, is going to be missing some of those key elements that maybe you dolearn when you're in that? Just like that slog yeah, it's tradeoffs for sureyou know you definitely by not getting that type of experience. There's thingsyou don't get. You don't learn to hard clothes and chase every deal withabandon and feel like your job is always on theline and the pressure that it comes with it. You know, there's there arecertainly things you learn and sharpen, and it was awesome growing for me, butwith where the world is going. There's also some things that I think you learnin today's Day, which can seem soft. You know if you want to put it that way,but at the same time you know if, as organizations, we want to deliver abetter buying journey and win in a different way. I think weshould be okay with some of that going by the wayside. It's you know, TheyreGreat War stories, and I certainly am like proud of those days, but there'slots of things that you're learning by doing and SDR BDR SMB AE selling a goodproduct that could be inbound generated. You know, there's there's a lot thatcomes from that you learn the product in depth. You learn to have a differenttype of customer conversation, so neither's necessarily better or werseOm. You know I was formative for me, but I certainly think we can builddifferent now. There's no way to get...

...away with what we did back thet yeg tocrowd or trust pilot would have prevented that company from selling inthe way that we did but yeah good lessons learned, and any of thatexperience is just what you take take from it totally and thank goodness ourbusinesses aren't operating like like that anymore. I just wonder sometimes,if there's a way to almost like crate, these almost like training environments-I don't know- maybe e Woll, get there vrar like boiler rooms where we don'thave to subject it the castl to it. But I've worked. I've worked with my olduniversity WHO's, building a sales course and a sale certification, andone of the things that I strongly was pushing as like. You need to get peopleexposure to the phones, so they can figure out if this is something theyactually want to do or of sales in a tech company just sounds like fun, andso I as like, get them to dial for donations. If they can do six or twelvemonths calling alumni for donations and theyre coming out of that experiencegoing like yeah, I could. I could see myself doing this for the next fiveyears. Then then, you have a pretty good idea, because it's really hard toknow now that sales is viewed more favorably than it was when we werecoming up. Do you really want to do sales, or doyou like the idea of it, and is this just the only way into it, Tech Company?So what's that filter filter process at the front end, so I'm hoping moreuniversities can want teach the business of sales moreand hopefully find ways to give people exposure to it to help them figure out.If this is actually for them without needing to learn that in your firstmore months as an SDR just being absolutely terrified of picking up thephone, you know that's a hard thing for folks to go through yeah, that's agreat, a great idea and I think even companies could could implement thatinto their their training programs. If you don't want your and yours callingit, if you have a small Tam, you don't want them calling into right away likesetting them up just to get over that fear of calling for like donations orsome sortist. It's pretty cool yeah, it's probably a whole otherconversation, sometimes yeah about, like also is that, like the only waynow to break into tech on the business side like there's, not a ton of juniorroles, except for, like you know, Br and coming up that track, which I thinkwe need to do a better job as an industry of creating some some otherjunior roles. But but this would be an argument yeah. We move off this topic,but yeah this a good point. This would be the argument to build that BDR rolein a way where you don't have to be a sales savage. You know right the waythat business is done today. I don't need to be Mr Slick cold collar to be able to dothe BDR role really well. I can be great at understanding the customerbase who's a fit who's, not having really really targeted out reach, andyou know careful positioning. It's like yeah, okay, you're, not a sharp on youknow these folks aren't as sharp on the phones anymore, but there's other waysto get things done, and you know that BDR, I'm a big proponent of that BDRfunction, being an intake vow for the rest of the organization and us not not having this position tlike. Ifyou're exploring an MSSCSM role, then it's like. Oh, this person doesn't wantto be in sales and it's a big question mark of that sort of old school mindset.You know when don't build this function as an amazing intake valve for you tounderstand the customer really well get experience talking to people andthinking about the businesses you support, and then those people can goall sorts of places cs: Implementation. SCE, OPS, you know we I've had peoplefrom my BDR or a trap of I end up in all sorts of different places and ifyou think, a little more holistically and take off theug like if you're notgoing into sales, then you're irrelevant to me hat is still a little more prevalent thanyou'd, like than I think, that's a...

...better place to be that's a great, agreat callup. No, a great point: You can there's so much that goes into itright. You could be great at business analysis so that the messaging Yourecrafting for these companies rarely resonates. You could even be you seesome medias that are axcellent like content creator to create their ownlittle mini downd engines for themselves. So it is true and it's coolto see it evolve past that the traditional view and lines of the rolelast question, I ask in your background, then I know you have a bunch ofinteresting models that I want to get through, but this is more just apersonal question because I found my self in this position many times andI'm sure you haven't and still do. I think we all do if you're, if you'regrowing, so you said you are kind of the right place right time. You weregiving these opportunities to lead teams when maybe you didn't have asmuch experience. What were your levers to bridge that down? You know rofcourse. There's books you can read, there's logs, you can dothere'syeaveryone says, go, find an entor whatever what were like theactual things you did in your journey, t to Briak that gap Britchit quicklyand try and figure it out on the fly yeah. It's not a new answer. It's books.You know I've read sales acceleration formula right whenit came out very early in my managemasserer yeah, and you know thatstuff all just like you know you just assume people know all those things,but at the time when that book was written, I was like wow, you knowhiring score card with. You know a rigorous applicant funnel. This is thisis amazing, so Yo there's a couple of those books, talent code by Danielcoyle. I tell people to read made to stick. is another bigone on how to create messaging Ot, not a salesbook, but one that has goodframeworks that I like and sales acceleration for me. Obviously likethere was a in at the time I was wandering through the darkness, and Iread a lot of bad stuff as well. But and then you know a bunch of thestandard stuff good to Grad how to win friends. You know, there's there's awhole litany of great books to help navigate that journey and it was sortof like a cheat code. For me like I would read something as a rap like Iwould read something and I would get an idea. I remember Reading Challenger,I'm like oh I'm going to think about doing this,and and I'm going to change the way that I structure the opening of my call-and I had a process by which I was like acquiring insights so because it washard to understand the industries I was selling into. So I would ask myprospects: Hey I'm curious, like you know, as you look through the Agen o.What we'retalking about like? What's the thing that we're not talking aboutthat, you think everybody's missing and it gives people the chance to put ontheir like smart person hat and show how much they know about something, andI still ask that same question to folks in a different way these days, and so Iwould write down. Those like you know, come more controversial and moreinteresting perspectives, and I would roll that back to the next person likeHay, somebody was talking to y wis talking about Blah Lah Blah Blah Blah,and that was a great way for M me to build my book of insights that wasn'ton some industry blog because, obviously, by the time it's onanindutry blog, its old hat. So I just remember that experience of ReadingChallenger reading about in the structure, reading about teachTaylor take control and applying that teach thing alson. My conversationswere better all a sudden. I was getting way more deals to late stages and itwas just like magic. It was like. Oh, this is like I can just read thesethings and then try some stuff and all sudden, I'm better at my job and I'mmaking more money and- and it was just so such a powerful experience that when Iwas a manager, was just reading everything I could and you make a bunchof mistakes and you missapply things and I read you know you read radicalcandir and then you're like hey asot. I really got Ta really like you, but likeyou're, really bad at your job and h. That was like your first application ofranical candor yeah and you know you're crude with it. Buthonestly that was so much of it and I...

...good mentors at the time like you knowit was a funny company and yet we had really great leaders. My the two guys that I learned fromFran and Jason. You know we're only a couple years older than me at the time,but like love, the craft of sales and loved building people and that helped me a ton just read and thentalk about it, try some stuff and that's it's a good shortcut. Yeah. Don'Oik, I haven't actually read talent, codes or maid to stick so I'e furitn Osstanding in to check those out and yeah bunch of the ones you mentioned. I inmy first bd program that I that I built, I won't even say, IE built. It wasbasically just a bastardiis version: Sales, acceleration formula,predictable revenue and Trispertus sale development, playbook all like Hodgepodged into this other version, and it worked and it's kind of crazy that youknow these things. You can basically copy them and h they'll work, and I also likethis idea of just using other conversations toinform other comy using insights from other conversations to make yourselfalmost appear smarter. In other conversations. Btine can say I do thatall the time on this podcast Yowill, fom, other episoe and itwhat. Do youthink Abou that it's interesting and it's a good? It's a really goodtransition point for our conversation about career growth and the I think,the important callout, especially in today's environment, where I thinkwe're still trying to navigate the fine line between having worklife balance and havinghaving a workplace that feel sustainable and also the reality oflike hardwork pays off like how do we thread that needle and I think it'simportant to say before we get into the career stuff. You cannot expectextraordinary career outcomes with ordinary work ethic it just you knowlike you. Can you can expect and hope for growing your career by doing yournine to five and learning on the job, but there's always going to be somebodythat is willing to go above and beyond, and if they're working harder andprogressing their skills faster, like it's still a business at the end of theday and you're going to give that opportunity to the person that isputting in the effort, and so for me that was such a huge thing. It's like,I was twenty two when I got my first team and the other guys that were inthe running, were you know, late s early s which, in that environment waswas very veteran and you know they'd be in at the company a long time, and I just made it a really hard decisionbecause I was cranking in terms of sales output and I made sure thenumbers were there and I was just like building stuff and sharing it. With mywith my team members and like really just demonstrating that I was goingabove and beyond, and you know it's sort of, I don't think they were superpump to promote me at the time, because you know it's such a big risk and but Imade it made an oud choice and managed to get it so, like I I will say beforewe get into all the stuff like y. u you just have to work hard and doesn't meanjust smoking dials like that, that's not it! It's like put the effort intoto working on yourself a and being great at your craft and that's like thebaseline for everything yeah. I couldn't agree more and onething ill add. Maybe you agree with this? Maybe U you don't but also knowlike when you're, when you're working so hard life is a little bit cycklicalon like a microlevel and a matro level, so they'll be periods where you knowyou got it just okay, just next three years, I'm sprinting for three yearsand then they'll be cycles where you know you're a little bit more set up,you're, not going for that big big new push anymore and and you're a littlemore comfortable, and then you can rest reassess and Lik understand. So I thinkyou know there's a lot of talk about...

...burnout now and things and that' supersuper super important, but know that, like there will be natural periods whenyou put that much work where ther'll be time to reassess you do you agree withthat? Did you have periods in your life that you know you could ease off thegas a little bit yeah? I mean the first ten years of my careerwere sprint icome competitive my nature, and I lovewhat I do like I love sales. I love building teams and investing in myfolks. So it wasn't. It wasn't hard all the time you know there are certainlyperiods w we're hard and you bring it home and you're really like you'regetting burned out for sure, but I was pretty pedtal to the metal for a longtime. You know you just have to learn it's either you spring ing, rest andthere's all you always have to find those periods of rest. I've neverreally had a you know a year or a two year span where I'm more stable. I'vealways just done build, build work. But for me it's it's it's about how to do the other thingsto keep yourself going so, like I read why we sleep and I went from being likeOh, like I'm just a guy who only needs five or six hours of sleep, and I wouldroutinely sleep five hours a night and I read that book nd, it's like ohyou're, basically giving yourself cancer and killing yourself early andhere's. Why you should sleep eight hours a night and hears how to do it?Well, and I was like okay, I'M gonna GO! Do that yeah e!! you can you'd be surprised by H, W hard.You can push yourself if you're trying to take care of yourself in the rightways and like I'm, a spotty meditator, but when things get hard like that partof my routine comes back and it's like a more standard practice, so I totallyagree yeah the other framing. Is You can learn and monetize so there'spoints of your career where I'm like diving into something, I'm reallyfocused on learning a whole bunch and maybe there's Times that I've like okay.Now I want to monetize on all that learning that I've done so, like you go,take the early startup thing and you know ythey're like Oh, we can only payyou this it's half of your market worth, but, like you, look at all theseoptions that are never going to be worth anything, but you know if you view those periodsof time. These are my learning years and then you know you want to find somemonitization years to follow. That's another sor of career framework that Isound helpful, that's a great, a great framework and an way to look. Look atit and sometimes yeah go ecause. This trap of a lot of peopleget into this monetize and then monetizeand theMoneti, and they just keep. They forget the learning case and they're alwaysstriving for that, and I find that sometimes a very quick route tounhappiness. You find yourself from waters where you don't really likefully know. What's going on, you don't feel like you're driving like as muchvalue as you could. So I like that that framework. Okay, what other things youknow many listeners on this would would look at your career and be like that'swhat I want. So what would you say to those people? Maybe you're, like youknow, just got your first management role and I'm trying to do some careermapping, I'm trying to afigure myself of Mercey Griw as a person and then I'mtrying to grow as a career. Do you have some some adviceor tips for those Botyeah? So I can talk through framework that I give my team and it's a way that mymanagers can help their folks think about their careers and for everybodyindividually to think about their careers and sort of number one. Thepreframing is that, like don't expect it for extraordinary results fromordinary work ethic like what are you willing to give up to get there yeaheverybody wants to be a cro for sure, but not a lot of people want to go. Dothat do that work, and you have to have a really honest conversation about withyourself about like what what is important and what you're willing togive hum so t at that's sort of piece one, the second, so the framework thatI wantd to chat through is three things.

So there's three drivers to careergrowth, one is skills development, so that's both career skills and personalskills. To is impact. Are you driving results and impact with yourorganization with your teams? And the third is luck and or opportunity givinga shout out to one of my old bosses Jason? It's you know. Good luck is whenhardwork meets opportunity and Ho said this like super early, it's sort ofCliche, but it makes a lot of sense, and so how do you? How do you get lack on your side? You can havesome control over, so we can talk about it. So the first piece about that aboutthe model is growth. I E, at the end of the day, growth is the only thing thatmatters. It solves for everything if you're getting better at your job, ifyou're getting better at your job and focusing on getting better at the craft,not just closing more deals, and it's I'm just going to make more dials orI'm Goingna, I'm gointo create more pipeline, but if you're really tryingto intentionally get better- and you know I reference talent code and theytalk a lot about deep learning. So how do you focus on getting better atsmaller amounts of things over longer periods of time? So, internally, withmy teams, we pick one theme to go deep on for a month or six weeks, and wedon't move off of that until we feel like we're getting better because thenthere's a critical mass there's, an organizational momentum around gettingbetter at that thing, and we should all individually know what those things arein our skills that we want to work on. What is the thing that I'm reallyinvested in your timeline grows? Is your as your sort of or senior like?What am I spending thet next quarter, onm getting better at and if you justfocus on getting better it stuff things solve themselves, sorry just tyr to endup there. I just want it because I think that's. I really like this idea,particularly in such a noisy world, where there so many directon or so manypotentialities. I can go learn this. I could learn this when you say your teamfocuses on one teeme. Do you have your whole team focusing on that theme oreach individual? You know, picks a theme and that's what they roll withfor a month. So we pick a theme as a team, so all of the enablement contentP use an example from from sort of q for Discovery, or I don't know whenthis was. But we wanted to get better discovery and you know Everybodyi's.Everybody wants to get better discovery, but then you know you often don't godeep to really do it. So we spend six weeks in if you think about adultlearning principles like how do we, how do we teach things in ways that aremore more tangible? So, for me, one of theentablement frameworks I like which I borrowed fror mixed martial arts- isthis idea of introduce, isolate, integrade and there's differentframeworks for this, and so the first thing that we do in this sort of sixweek period is we're going to introduce the topic. So how do you give your teama topic so they can intellectually explore it. How do they? How do theylearn about it so, especially in a digital by default like a distributedwork environment? So what's The preread? Am I giving you podcast books? Is itreviewing a bunch of your calls? What is the Prework, I'm asking you to doand the learning to come into the live learning environment, the live learningenvironment want, it should never be shown tell you, should never just havean enablement or a sales leader get up there and like pitch a bunch of tr liketeach a bunch of stuff that can all be done ahead of time. That's your preread!That's your prewatch! But what then, how do we explore the topic? How do weintroduce the topic in that session? What are the interactive activities andworkshops that we're doing in that time together and that's usually in smallgroups and breakut groups and then there's a good framework to like whatare the best ways for you to get to know new learnings and likeregardmemorizand? regurgitate is the lowest form of this and the highestform is. Can you create something new with this piece of learning so nowwe're getting to into introducing that...

...topic in a moretangible way, so thatthat second thing is isolate so now that we've taught our team a little bitabout the topic, they've intellectually explored it. Now we're really gettinginto how do we? How do we practice this new skill in an isolated environment?Don't practice on the playing field is sort of the saying, and if you read thetown code, which I was talking about, how do we? How Do we constructenvironments where we're doing deliberate practice, ind, deep learning,and so that's? If I'm, if I'm trying to teach discovery, I'm not saying okay,Scoy you're going to do discoveryand, then we're going to mock role play afull twenty minute conversation! No we're just going to do the discoverything like over and over and over and over, and as it's really important thatwe teach our team to be good training partners. So they can help give theright feedback to their to their learner and I'm trying to keep you inthe learning zone. So so we learn best when we're about sixty to eightypercent successful with that new task. So I'm learning a piece of music and Ican just rip it off and I do a hundred percent of that song correctly. I'm notreally learning anything, I'm not creating new Milen, which is what I'm,which is what the brain is doing, to learn a new skill. But if I'm alsomissing every second note, I'm also not really learning so as instructurs or asthe rule player partner, which can be your sales rap. I'm trying to give makemake this situation hard enough, so that you're between sixty to eightypercent successful, and so that's my isolate phase of this, and so I'm beingreally intentional about the learning opportunities that I'm building hereand you have to be really intentional. As an Nableman sales leadership tobuild the right things, it's not okay, now, just like mock, call a bunch oflike random situations. No, it's like. I want you to do this and I want thisis how to make that situation harder or easier you're going to ask the basicquestions or I'm going to give you the basic answers to the hey. Tell me aboutyour business. How are you trying to grow and then you know yeers how tomake that tough for well- and you know like we're happy with where we're at sowe don't really have any big business goals. That would be an example. Makethat learning situation harder and make the learn or try a little bit somethingnew and then the integrate pieace is so now. How do we integrate this new skillinto a live fire environment where I'm doing it in the real world and then thekey? There is the feedback loop so once you're doing it in the real world. Howdo you measure and give really specific feedback? And so this is the laterparts of this six week journey or you know you'll get to that by week. Threeand then weeks, three through six are all sort of integrated real worldfeedback and that's all of the great conversational analytics tools. So an example of then how? How can youintegrate with even more specificity and make it fun? So in the discoveryexample, we ran a contest and part of the scoring criteria. Was You need tomake your buyer say? That's a really good question and so th. The Gongtractor we used was that's a really good question, so it's a great way tomake it fun, but also measure it. How do you measure good discovery? You know,could be talkless an ratio, but it's not always easy. So we just kept itsimple and as many times as you can get your buyer to say, that's a really goodquestion, like you know, you're you're, doing okay and that's an integratedlive feedback mechanism and then the coaching for that whole period is ondiscovery and the coaches. The sales leads are, instructed, Hey, like don't,really veer off and do a bunch of call coaching on random other stuff likeunless it's really really like mission critical this. This is causing us pooroutcomes like just focus on this thing, and so, if you sto that and then allthe all the questions that the raps are asking one another and the things youshare, iand slack and the feedback they're getting one on one in theactivities you'r doing and then the spiff you run on top of it. If you havethis critical mass of activities that...

...are happening just on this one learningtopic, you'll be really surprised with the amount of improvement you can makein six weeks. So that is quite a long explanation on learning depth that was gold man. Ilove that you pulled this pramework from mixed. Martial arts. Introduceisolate, integrate, think that's a great way to deframe it. I thinkwatching. For that. That's a really good question. You know conversationsgoing well, I thats. If that's come comes out. Okay, I want to get to thelast two so impat impact, and then luck. Let's Juk through those two as one yeah,so impact is pretty straightforward. Do really great at your job, be at the topof leader board, but get it done and do it right, obviously being the key thereand then make sure your finding ways to show those things. So you, if we, if welook at the luck component of the model, you can make your own luck byincreasing your visibility. So, on the girl side, I'm trying to get better I'mtrying to learn a bunch of skills, and I'm being intentional about that. Butthen I'm also trying to build the skills. I need for the next job that Ithink I want, and so that's like reading t e leadership books andfinding opportunities to do some buddymentorship or take on a project.You know Ey. We want to rework these cadences. Then then you're going to usethat opportunity to put your hand up Wuld, be like Oh, like I can write asequence like. Let me take a crack ot it so because you're now building theskill, you need to be a good good sales manager and I'm also trying todemonstrate and show the impact. I can build a as a sales manager, so I'mmaking the impact, I'm being somebody that can be relied upon, and I'm tryingto show that I can do the next thing and then the last sort of third part ofthis framework is, is luck an opportunity, so you can make your ownluck by being in the right places at the right time, so that could be beingin a quickly scaling. Startup, that's the typical one. Everybody thinks ifthey're early in a start up they'll be the VP sales in like six months just by ver, you might be, but you'llprobably get fired in nine yeah yeah. Exactly so is it a high growthenvironment is an environment that has a really well defined crew developmenttrack. Do they promote from within? Do you have a leader like? Are you goingthere to learn from a specific leader that is super duper critical like morethan the company? You want to know who you're working for, and I optimized for that in my shopifycareer heavily. You know it was important for me to find like values,alignment and somebody that I felt like. I could really get a lot from and learna lot from, and so, if you think about like what are the things where theplaces that opportunity will present itself, that's how you can controlthose variables and then it's visibility, it's sponsorship. So how amI building the right relationships internally and and offering to helpwith the people that are that? I need to be seen as a high potentialcandidate for the next thing and then a lot and then the other piece of Jispatients, like you know we're not patient as people as a sales profession.So that's a harder one, but understanding that you know there'sthese ebbs and flows. You talked about sort of sprint and rest the somethingelse I say a lot is like things will ebb and flow and you'll get looked overor somebody els will get chosen for a role, and it feels like you, there's nopossibility o the next thing, and if you're in an an high growth environment,O environment that changes, then you'd be surprised how quickly things turnand having a bit of patience to stick things out and focus on the previousstuff. So it's like okay, I'm not getting to do the job I really want todo. I want to manage Ju Sal Taye. I want to manage a sales team and youdon't get that opportunity will instead of pouting about it and going andlooking some somewhere else. It's like okay, then now I've got another six ornine months to just like go crazy on learning now, 'm, not learning on thejob, because I'm not in that role. But...

...what can I do to prepare myself and-and maybe this is my like rest time- I can do this job. In my sleep, I've beena BDR for a year now, like the job's automatic. Okay, that's like use yourrest time, because you know when you're I new AE your sprinting. So likeconserve your energy, get, you know like get yourself healthy, do all thosethings learn their learning learn and then, when the next day, e Roll OpensUp, you're ready to go, you're rested and ready to rock. I love that I lovethat can agree more with the leader that you work for iseverything I feel like. That then becomes more and more true. Even as mycareer goes, I look back at at moments and itwhich wasn'n the company it wasn't the opportunity wasn't the industry. It wasalways the leader that I was working under wout would would help get to that kind of nextnext days, so so important. You also said something that should be written on on everyone's, while shouldbe like a poster, make your own lack bick, creating more visibility foryourself T. that's it right, like that's. I often say and there's waysyou can do this internally there's ways you can do this externally. You knowyou can create media assets, whether it's like a podcast or a newsletter orlinked in or speaking at places, it's kind of like when you do that and youmake yourself visible, you're, creating these beacons for like interestingproblems and interesting people to find you that you can cansolve and buildwith, and you can do a similar thing internally, your organizations as well.So I really like, like that, one thing to build on that, becauseit's this something I hear a lot is like. Oh, like I just don't likeplaying politics, I hate politics. I don't think anybody likes politicsunless you're bit of a sociopath. So so it's easy to complain about it'slike, oh, like I don't want to just like. Do this t to kiss up to the tothe boss or whatever it's like yeah totally like it's a weird thing to doand it's it feels weird to just like post a bunch of stuff O on Linkedin, sothat people see you and you can complain about that and say it's likesilly. But this is the way the world is and you as a pragmatist, you either justlike. Do it and leverage the world for what it is andquit trying to hope that it's going to be something that it isn't or you knowyou're going to, let yourself get get a little less lucky. Hey Man couldn'tagree more. It's particularly in sales again, there's so many differentoffshoot. Episodes well have to have you back because there's another Aythere's another interesting thing that pop man there's like particularly sales,there's kind of this culture of just hit your number. You just hit yournumber all your problems go away, but like now you really, if you want anextraordinary career, that's the ordinary side. Like you said, N N,that's the ordinary effort of hitting your number you've got a fine ways tomake yourself visible. Contribute in other ways, have impact beyond that manthi's like mmake. It make it dead simple for me, like Ohy, now, scottcanmanage e team, because everybody already comes to Scott to answer theirquestions and Scott. The one sharing, interesting new approaches to this dealor Scotts doing this. You know, if you just look. If you just show yourself to besomebody that can clearly do the next thing, then things get a lot easier foryou and an again like this is the other really important thing aboutbeing a pragmatist is at's all probabilities and why a third of thissort of model is like luck will in. Even if you do all the right things,there's still only a percentage probability that t a right outcome andsoof like if you read thinking an bets by any Duke. Obviously, this is like awell documented line of thinking. You're still, it's still might not gothe right way, there's a chance, but if you just keep doing the right thingslike stick to the process like it's process over o results, don't play theresults. Did you do the right things...

...was? I learning was I doing wash Iputting up the right metrixs was I contributing outside of it? Okay, likeI got passed over because you know it's the boss's cousin and that's all unfair,there's going to be a lot of those breaks in life, but if you, but neverlet it dissuade you from continuing to do the right things, because you seethis and more Soen Ju more junior folks, but like they don't get the promotion,and maybe there was some like coaching feedback there that was legit or maybeit was just like wrong timing and then they creather- and you know it'scutting off your nose to spite your face. Instead, it's just like was Iexecuting my process. was I doing the right things? Yes, okay, that's that'sall I can control and I'm just going to keep doing this, and I know that thiswill pay off over the long term, great great advice- and I know you're abusy guy. I've kept you a couple minutes over, but I do want to leavethis question because everyone's super busy they're, probably multicasking asth the listeners are listening to this. Maybe they're theyre dialing as they'vegot this fomotivation they're working out. You know dealing with kidswhatever it is. If people forget everything that we just talked about,because there was a lot of a lot coming at you, there there's a lot of goldeverything, but three things. What would you want? Those three things tobe broth is the only thing that matters number one call one B be intentional about whatyou're, what you're trying to grow in like own, that own your own development,be intentional about what you're getting better at and put in the workto is extraordinary career results do notcome with ordinary effort in ordinary work ethic and then threes Tryi, tomake your own luck so find ways to stack. The deck in your favor, butalways know that it's still a game of probabilities, even if you do all theright things, maybe you tip yourself tip things in your favor seveny thirty,which means three out of ten times. This happens. It's not going the waythat you want it, but never get dissuaded from your process now learnput up numbers try to be visible in the right ways and be in the right types ofcompanies with the right leaders. Things will turn out really well in thelong run, elove it Ma'am Well Kyle. Thank you so much for for hanging outwith me for hanging out with h the listeners truly one of one of myfavorite conversations I've had in in a while. So thank you pprosure it. I cansee why you've had such an incredible career man, I'm excited to see youcontinue to to crush it at shopify and beyond and for all those listeners.Thank you so much for hanking out with us. I know you probably learned a timeI know I did. I've got a pageful, a notes, that's how I know it's a goodone and we'll see you next episode, Nex Lot. This was another episode of the SalesEngagement podcast to help this get in front of more eyes and ears. Pleaseleave us a shining five star review join us at sales engagementcom for newepisodes. Resources in the book on sales engagement to get the most out ofyour sales engagement strategy, make sure to check out out reached Lio. Theleading sales engagement platform see you on the next episode.

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