The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

3-Part Framework for Career Growth w/ Kyle Norton


Growth is the only thing that matters.

Given that, we need to be more intentional about what and how we’re trying to grow.

In this episode, I interview Kyle Norton, Head of Revenue, Canada at Shopify, about career growth strategies.

What we talked about:

  • There’s no getting around the need for hard work
  • Kyle’s 3-part framework for career growth
  • How he teaches his team deep learning using strategies from mixed martial arts

For more engaging sales conversations, subscribe to The Sales Engagement Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Sales Engagement in your favorite podcast player.

Hey folks, it's under me born. Now, before jumping in, I've got to tell you about on least two thousand and twenty one. On May eleven through thirteen, were focusing on how to win together in the new sales era. You'll learn new go to market strategies, get deeper funnel insides and actional takeaways for your entire org from revenue leaders, Highgro startups and fortune five hundred companies and are very special guests or none other than Guy Raz the podcaster and author of how I built this and carry lawns, the first female fighter pilot in the US Navy. Come Save Your seat for this high energy online event at only stock outreach. That ioh. Now let's get into it. Welcome to the sales engagement podcast. This podcast is brought to you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform, and they just launched outreach on outreach, the place to learn how outreach. Well does outreach? Learn how the team follows up with every lead in record time after virtual events and turns them into revenue. You can also see how outreach runs account based plays, manages reps and so much more using their own sales engagement platform. Everything is backed by data pulled from outreach processes and customer base. When you're done, you'll be able to do it as good as they do. Head to outreach, to io on outreach to see what they have going on. Now let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome back everyone to the sales engagement podcast. If this is your first time listening, why, extra welcome to you. You picked a good episode to cut your teeth in this podcast. I've been certainly excited for this one. I am joined by Kyle Norton, the head of revenue for Canada at a little company you all will know called shopify. Kyle, welcome, man, thanks for having me excited to have you on chop offy. Obviously arguably Canada's coolest company right now. I think I'll go ahead and say that I think you can claim to be Canada's coolest success story right now. So I want to start at the beginning. You know, head of revenue, self proclaimed schools company and in Canada. How did this all come to be, man, what's the Superhero Origin Story of Kyle Norton? So grew up where you are, in Vancouver, and I mean in Toronto. The last twelve thirteen years. Something like that started at a school. I went to business school, fell into sales like most, and up in this industry and was selling conferences and events at a pretty crappy company to be honest, just sling in events and sponsorships, and it was like a hardcore boiler room type environment, super old school. I had a stack of paper leads in a phone on my desk. This is two thousand and eight. This isn't like the S, but that was the attitude. Like you sold on the phone, sending email was for a whims type type of thing. I was there for four and a half years and just got like the hardcore sales education. It was all all the acumen you could possibly want, because you're selling a product that wasn't all that great. People who knew about the event. You actually wanted people not to know about our brand because generally when they knew, it wasn't super positive. So, like you were, you were selling uphill. But because I started right after the or during the financial crash, company trank and grew, which meant I got an opportunity to move into leadership earlier than I probably should have and was a manager of a small team that had a couple teams and you know, by the time I was three years into my career I had four teams under me and and was doing a bunch of stuff. Again, like right place, right time. Wasn't really prepared for it, but it was an awesome opportunity, you know, to learn a lot of from a lot of great salespeople and to learn by...

...doing and make a bunch of mistakes. Actually left the corporate world to I started a mixed martial Arts Academy with the business partner and did that for a full time for a year and a half. Missed sales badly, so came back and went down the technology route and have been building and rebuilding SASS sales teams for the last six or seven years and most recently shopify started to build our point of sale teams. So shop if I wanted to get more aggressive about taking its retail products a market and skilled a team from sort of six to sixty and change over the course of eighteen months. We just did a big REORG and now those teams are dispersed regionally and so my new remit is in Canada, but for all shopify products. So our point of sale product, our core products plus, which is for sort midmarket and enterprise customers and our money products. So we're in months three here of building that and and I own sales partnerships and a couple related things like I see in Rabops, etc. Wow, heck of a journey. It's funny. There's there's a decent amount of parallels in our our stories. I I similarly. I I've sold a lot of sponsorships. That's what I was doing at salesaccer and noting that that line of business it can be a lot of work. I've also, in a previous role, definitely been part of those boiler room environments that you you only see in the yeah, the movies. Now, thank goodness. Yeah, I guess there's a there's an interesting point of view because I look at those times and I'm like, Oh man, I don't wish that on anyone. Like thank goodness those are going by the wayside. But there is a part of me like like you you said, is the business acumen that you pick up and the sales skills that you pick up only based on the peer of volume and number of conversations and different people you have to interact with. You can't get that kind of training anywhere right like you could. You could go through every sales trainers course imaginable. But you know, I remember back then I literally did this exercise where I mapped out I think it was forty seven different personality types. That's how many people I was talking to. I started to bucket what these people were like and make my own like kind of system. Do you think that this new generation you maybe skips some of that? You know, for better or worse, is going to be missing some of those key elements that maybe you do learn when you're in that just like that slog yeah, it's tradeoffs, for sure. You know, you definitely by not getting that type of experience. There's things you don't get. You don't learn to hard close and chase every deal with abandon and and feel like your job is always on the line and the pressure that it comes with it. You know, there's there are certainly things you learn and sharpen and and it was awesome growing for me. But with where the world is going, there's also some things that I think you learn and today's Day, which can seem soft, you know, if you want to put it that way. But at the same time, you know, if as organizations. We want to deliver a better buying journey and when in a different way. I think we should be okay with some of that at going by the wayside. It's, you know, they're great war stories and I certainly am like proud of those days, but there's lots of things that you're learning by doing and str BEDR smbae selling a good product that could be inbound generated. You know, there's a there's a lot that comes from that. You learn the product in depth, you learn to have a different type of customer conversation. So neither's necessarily better or worse. Something, you know was formative for me, but I certainly think we can build different now. There's no way to...

...get away with what we did back then, and GT crowd or trustee pilot would have prevented that company from selling in the way that we did. But yeah, good lessons learned and any of that experiences just what you take. Take from it totally and thank goodness our businesses aren't operating like like that anymore. I just wonder sometimes if there's a way to almost like create these almost like training environments. I don't know, maybe we'll get there. Vraar like boiler rooms where you don't have to subject the Cupsle to it. But I've worked. I've worked with my old university who's building a sales course and a sale certification, and one of the things that I strongly was pushing as a you need to get people exposure to the phones so they can figure out if this is something they actually want to do or if sales in a tech company just sounds like fun. And so I was like, get them to dial for donations. If they can do six or twelve months calling alumni for donations and they're coming out of that experience going like yeah, I could, I could see myself doing this for the next five years, then then you have a pretty good idea, because it's really hard to know now that sales is viewed more favorably than it was when we were coming up. Do you really want to do sales or do you like the idea of it, and is this just the only way into a tech company? So, if what's that filter, filter process at the front end? So I'm hoping more universities can want to teach the business of sales more and hopefully find ways to give people exposure to it to help them figure out if this is actually for them without needing to learn that in your first four months, as in stre just being absolutely terrified of picking up the phone. You know, that's a hard thing for folks to go through. Yeah, that's a great a great idea, and I think even companies could could implement that into their their training programs. If you don't want your drs calling it, if you have a small tam you don't want them calling into right away, like setting them up just to get over that fear of calling for like donations of some sort, as it's pretty cool. Yeah, probably a whole other conversation sometimes. Yeah, about like also, is that like the only way now to break into tech? On the business side, like there's not a ton of junior roles except for, like, you know, being are and coming up that track, which I think we need to do a better job as an industry of creating some some other junior roles. But but this would be an argument. Yeah, we move off this topic, but yeah, this is a good point. This would be the argument to build that Bedr Roll in a way where you don't have to be a sales savage, you know, right, the way that business is done today I don't need to be Mr slick cold caller to be able to do the BDR roll really well. I can be great at understanding the customer base. WHO's a fit, who's not having really really targeted outreach and and you know, careful positioning. It's like yeah, okay, you're not as sharp on you know, these folks aren't as sharp on the phones anymore, but there's other ways to get things done and you know that Bedr. I'm a big proponent of that bedr function being an intake valve for the rest of the organization and us not not having this position that if you're exploring an MS acsm roll, then it's like, oh, this person doesn't want to be in sales and it's a big question mark. That sort of old school mindset. You know why don't build this function as an amazing intake valve to for you to understand the customer really well, get experience talking to people and thinking about the businesses you support, and then those people can go all sorts of places. CS IMPLEMENTATION SC OPS. You know, we've we I've had people from my Bedr Org a trap if I end up in all sorts of different places and if you think a little more holistically and take off the like. If you're not going into sales, they you're irrelevant. To me. Hat is still a little more prevalent than you'd like them. I...

...think that's a better place to be. That's a great, great call up. Now a great point. You can there's so much that goes into it. Right you could be great at business analysis so that the messaging you're crafting for these companies fairly resonates. You could even be you see some medias that are excellent, like content creators who create their own little mini and found engines for themselves. So it is true and it's cool to see it evolved past that the traditional view and lends it to the role. Last question I ask in your background, then, I know you have a bunch of interesting models that I want to get through, but this is more just a personal question, because I found my self in this position many times and I'm sure you haven't and still do. I think we all do. If you're if you're growing, so you said, you're kind at the right place right time. You're giving these opportunities to lead teams when maybe you didn't have as much experience. What were your levers to bridge that down. You know the other of course, there's books you can read, there's blogs you can do, there's yeah, even says go find and then to or whatever. What we're like the actual things you did in your journey to bridge that gap. Bridget quickly and try and figure it out on the fly. Yeah, it's not a new answer. It's books. You know, I read sales acceleration formula right when it came out, very early in my managementssler. Yeah, and and so, you know, that's stuff all just like you know, you just assume people know all those things. But at the time when that book was written, I was like wow, you know, hiring scorecard with, you know, a rigorous applicant funnel. This is this is amazing. So you know, there's a couple of those books. Talent code by Daniel coyle. I tell people to to read made to stick as another big one on how to create messaging. Not Not a sales book, but one that has good frameworks. That I like. And sales acceleration for me obviously like there was a d at the time I was wandering through the darkness and I read a lot of bad stuff to that as well. But and then you know, a bunch of the standard stuff, good to great. How to win friends, you know, there's there's a whole litany of great books to help navigate that journey. And it was sort of like a cheap code for me, like I would read something as a wrap, like I would read something and I would get an idea. I remember Reading Challenger. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to think about doing this and and I'm going to change the way that I structure the opening on my call and I had a process by which I was like acquiring insights. So because it was hard to understand the industries I was selling into. So I would ask my prospects, Hey, I'm curious, like you, as you look through the agenda, what we're talking about, like what's the thing that we're not talking about that you think everybody's missing? And it gives people that chance to put on there like smart person hat and show how much they know about something. And I still ask that same question to folks in a different way these days. And so I would write down those, like you know, come more contra versial or more interesting perspectives, and I would roll that back to the next person like, Hey, somebody was talking to was talking about Bubba Bah, Bah Blah, and that was a great way for me to build my book of insights. That wasn't on some industry blog because obviously by the time it's on an industry blog it's old hat. So I just remember that experience of Reading Challenger, reading about in the structure, reading about teach Taylor take control, and applying that teach thing Al Sud my conversations were better. All a sudden I was getting way more deals to late stages and it was just like magic. It was like, Oh, this is like I can just read these things and then try some stuff and all sudden I'm better at my job and I'm making more money and and it was just so such a powerful experience that when I was a manager, just reading everything I could and you make a bunch of mistakes and you miss apply things and I wrote, you know, you read radical candor and then you're like Hey, God, I really just got I really like you, but like you're really bad at your job, and that was like my your first application of radical candor. Yeah, yeah, and you know your crude with it, but honestly, that was so much of... and I good mentors. At the time, like you know, it was a funny company and yet we had really great leaders. My to the two guys that I learned from, Fran and Jason. You know, we're only a couple years older than me at the time. But like love the craft of sales and loved building people and that helped me a ton. You just read and then talk about it, try some stuff and that's it's good shortcut. Yeah, totally. I haven't actually read talent code or made to stick. So I've written standing and to check those out. And Yeah, bunch of the ones you mentioned. I my first bed program that I that I built. I won't even say I built. It was basically just a bastardited it's version, sales acceleration formula, predictable revenue and trip for T Z, sale development playbook, all like Hodge podged into this other version and it worked. And it's kind of crazy that you know these things, you can basically copy them and they'll work. And I also like this idea of just using other conversations to inform other company, using insights from other conversations to make yourself almost a pure smarter and other conversations. One can say. I do that all the time on this podcast. You know I will episode and then drop it and got. What do you think about that? It's interesting and it's a good it's a really good transition points for our conversation about career growth and the the I think the important call out, especially in today's environment where I think we're still trying to navigate the fine line between having work life balance and having having a workplace that feels sustainable and also the reality of like hard work pays off. Like how do we thread that needle? And and I think it's important to say before we get into the career stuff, you cannot expect extra ordinary career outcomes with ordinary work ethic. It just you know, like you can you can expect and hope for growing your career by doing your nine hundred and twenty five and learning on the job, but there's always going to be somebody that is willing to go above and beyond and if they're working harder and progressing their skills faster. Like it's still a business at the end of the day and you're going to give that opportunity to the person that is putting in the effort. And so for me that was such a huge thing. It's like I I was twenty two when I got my first team and the other guys that were in the running were, you know, late s early s which, in that environment, was was very veteran and you know they'd be in at the company a long time. And I just made it a really hard decision because I was cranking in terms of sales output and I made sure the numbers were there and I was just like building stuff and sharing it with my with my team members and like really just demonstrating that I was going above and beyond. And you know, it's sort of I don't think they were super pumped to promote me at the time because you know, it's such a big risk and and but I'd made that made it our choice and managed to get it so like it. I will say before we get into all the stuff, like you you just have to work hard. It doesn't mean just smoking dials like that. That's not it. It's like put the effort into to working on yourself and and being great at your craft, and that's like the baseline for everything. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And one thing I'll add it. Maybe you agree with this, maybe you you don't, but also know, like when you're when you're working so hard, life is a little bit cyclical on like a micro level and a macro level. So they'll be periods where you know you got it just okay, that's next three years. I'm sprinting for three years, and then they'll be cycles where you know you're a little bit more set up, you're not going for that big, big new push anymore and and you're a little more comfortable and then you can rest, reassess and like understand. So I think you know I there's a lot of t talk about burnout now and things, and that's...

...super, super important, but know that, like, there will be natural periods when you put up that much work where they'll be time to reassess. You do agree with that. Did you have periods in your life that you know you could ease off the gas a little bit? Yeah, I mean the first ten years of my career were sprint. I come competitive by nature and and I love what I do, like I love sales, I love building teams and investing in my folks. So it wasn't it wasn't hard all the time. You know, there are certainly periods where we're hard and you bring it home and you're really like you're getting burned out, for sure. But I was pretty pedal to the metal for a long time. I've, you know, and you just have to learn it's either you sprint and rest, and there's all. You always have to find those periods of rest. I've never really had a you know, a year or a two year span where I'm more stable. I've always just done build, build, work. But for me it's it's it's about how to do the other things to keep yourself going. So, like I read why we sleep and I went from being like, Oh, like, I'm just a guy who only needs five or six hours of sleep and I would routinely sleep five hours a night and I read that book it's like, Oh, you're basically giving yourself cancer and killing yourself early, and here's why you should sleep eight hours a night and here's how to do it well. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go do that. Yeah, you know you can. You'd be surprised by how hard you can push yourself if you're trying to take care of yourself in the right ways. And like I'm a spotty meditator, but when things get hard like that, part of my routine comes back and and it's like a more standard practice. So I totally agree. Yeah, and the other framing is you can learn and monetize. So there's points of your career where I'm like diving into something, I'm really focused on learning a whole bunch, and maybe there's Times that I've like, okay, now I want to monetize on all that learning that I've done. Like you go, take the early startup thing and you know you're they're like, oh, we can only pay you this, it's half of your market worth. But like you'll look at all these options that are never going to be worth anything. But you know, if you view those periods of time, these are my learning years and then you know you want to find some monetization years to follow. That's another sort of career framework that I found helpful. That's a right a great framework and way to look look at it. And sometimes, yeah, there's this trap of a lot of people get into this monetize and then monetize and the monetized and they just keep they forget to learn case and they're always striving for that and I find that's sometimes a very quick route to unhappiness. You find yourself and waters where you don't really like fully know what's going on, you don't feel like you're driving like as much value as you could. So I like that that framework. Okay, what other things? You know many listeners on this would would look at your career and be like that's what I want. So what would you say to those people? Maybe you're like, you know, just got your first management role and I'm trying to do some career mapping. I'm trying to a figure myself out personally, grow as a person and then I'm trying to grow as a career. Do you have some some advice or tips for those books? Yeah, so I can talk through framework that I give my team and it's a way that my managers can help their folks think about their careers and for everybody individually to think about their careers and sort of number one the preframing is that like don't expect to extraordinary results from ordinary work ethic. Like what are you willing to give up to get there? Yeah, everybody wants to be a CRRO, for sure, but not a lot of people want to go do that, do that work, and you have to have a really honest conversation about with yourself about like what what is important and what you're willing to give up. So that that sort of piece one. The second so the framework that I want to chat through is...

...three things. So there's three drivers to career growth. One is skills development, so that's both career skills and personal skills. To is impact. Are you driving results and impact with your organization, with your team's and the third is luck and or opportunity. Giving a shout out to one of my old bosses, Jason. It's, you know, good luck is when hard work meets opportunity, and he said this thing super early. It's sort of Cliche, but it makes a lot of sense. And so how do you how do you get luck on your side? You can have some control over so we can talk about it. So the first piece about that, about the models. Growth. At the end of the day, growth is the only thing that matters. It solves for everything. If you're getting better at your job, if you're getting better at your job and focusing on getting better at the craft, not just closing more deals and it's I'm just going to make more dials or I'm going to I'm going to create more pipeline. But if you're really trying to intentionally get better, and you know, I reference talent code and they talk a lot about deep learning. So how do you focus on getting better at smaller amounts of things over longer periods of time? So internally with my team's we pick one theme to go deep on for a month or six weeks and we don't move off of that until we feel like we're getting better, because then there's a critical mass, there's an organized stational momentum around getting better at that thing and we should all individually know what those things are in our skills that we want to work on. What is the thing that I'm really invested in? Your timeline rows as your as you're sort of more senior, like what am I spending the next quarter on getting better at? And if you just focus on getting better at stuff, things solve themselves. Sorry, just started end up there. I just want to because I think that's I really like this idea, particularly in such a noisy world where there's so many distractors, so man potentialities. I can go learn this. I could learn this. When you say your team focuses on one theme, do you have your whole team focusing on that theme, or each individual, you know, picks a theme and that's what they roll with for a month. So we pick a theme as a team. So all of the enablement content. I'll use an example from from sort of queue for discovery. Or I don't know when this was, but we wanted to get better discovery and you know everybody's everybody wants to get better discovery, but then you know you have some don't go deep to really do it. So we spend six weeks in, if you think about I don't learning principles like how do we how do we teach things in ways that are more more tangible? So for me, one of the enablement frameworks I like, which I borrow from mixed martial arts, is this idea of introduce, isolate, integrate, and there's different frameworks for this. And so the first thing that we do in this sort of its week period is we're going to introduce a topic. So how do you give your team a topic so they can intellectually explore it? How do they how do they learn about it? So, especially in a digital by defaults like a distributed work environment. So what's The preread? Am I giving you podcast books? Is it reviewing a bunch of your calls? What is the pre work I'm asking you to do and the learning to come into the the live learning environment, the live learning environment. What it should never be shown tel. You should never just have an enablement or a sales leader get up there and like pitch a bunch of there like teach a bunch of stuff. That can all be done ahead of time. That's your preread, that's your pre watch. But what then? How do we explore the topic? How do we introduce the topic in that session? What are the interactive activities and workshops that we're doing in that time together? And that's usually in small groups and break groups. And then there's a good framework to like, what are the best ways for you to get to know new learnings and like regret, rememorize and regurgitate. Is the lowest form of this, and the highest form is, can you create something new with this piece of learning? So... we're getting into introducing that topic in a more tangible way. So that second thing is isolate. So now that we've taught our team a little bit about the topic, they've intellectually explored it. Now we're really getting into how do we how do we practice this new skill in an isolated environment? Don't practice on the playing field is sort of the saying. And if you read the talent code which I was talking about, how do we how do we construct environments where we're doing deliberate practice and deep learning? And so that's if I'm if I'm trying to teach discovery, I'm not saying, okay, Scott, you're going to do discovery and then we're going to mock role play a full twenty minute conversation. No, we're just going to do the discovery thing like over and over and over and over and and as a it's really important that we teach our team to be good training partners so they can help give the right feedback to their to their learner. And I'm trying to keep you in the learning zone. So we learn best when we're about sixty to eighty percent successful with that new task. So if I'm learning a piece of music and I can just rip it off and I do a hundred percent of that song correctly, I'm not really learning anything. I'm not creating new Myelin, which is what I'm which is what the brain is doing. To learn a new skill, but if I'm also missing every second note, I'm also not really learning. So as instructors or as the role player partner, which can be your sales wrap, I'm trying to give make make this situation hard enough so that you're between sixty to eighty percent successful. And so that's my isolate phase of this. And so I'm being really intentional about the learning opportunities that I'm building here, and you have to be really intentional as enablement sales leadership, to build the right things. It's not okay, now, just like mack call a bunch of like random situations. No, it's like I want you to do this and I want this. Is How to make that situation harder or easier. You're going to ask the basic questions, or I'm going to give you the basic answers to the hey, tell me about your business. How are you trying to grow? And then you know, here's how to make that toffer well, and you know, like, we're happy with where we're at. So we don't really have any big business goals. That would be an example. Make that learning situation harder and make the learner try a little bit something new and then the integrate piece is, so now how do we integrate this new skill into a live fire environment where I'm doing it in the real world? And then the key there is the feedback loop. So once you're doing it in the real world, how do you measure and give really specific feedback? And so this is the later parts of this six week journey, or you know you'll get to that by week three and then week three through six or all sort of integrated real world feedback and and that's all of the great conversational analytics tools. So an example of then how how can you integrate with even more specificity and make it fun? So in the discovery example, we ran a contest and part of the scoring criteria was you need to make your buy or say that's a really good question, and so the Gong tracker we used was that's a really good question. So it's a great way to make it fun but also measure it. How do you measure good discovery? You know, could be talk, listen, ratio, but it's not always easy. So we just kept it simple and as many times as you can get your buyers to say that's a really good question. Like you know you're you're doing okay, and that's an integrated live feedback mechanism. And then the coaching for that whole period is on discovery and the coaches, the sales leads, are instructed. Hey, like, don't really veer off and and do a bunch of call coaching on random other stuff, like unless it's really really like mission critical. This, this is causing US poor outcomes. Like just focus on this thing. And so if you steal that and then all the all the questions that the reps are asking one another and the things you share and slack and the feedback they're getting one on one in the activities you doing and then the spiff you run on top of it, if you have this critical mass of activities that are happening just on this one learning...

...topic, you'll be really surprised with the amount of improvement you can make in six weeks. So that is quite a long explanation on learning depth. That was gold man, I love that you pulled this framework from mixed martial arts. Introduce, isolate, integrate. I think that's a great way to frame it. Think watching for that. That's a really good question. You know, a conversations going well, that's if that's comes out. Okay, I want to get to the last two. So impact, impact, and then luck. Let's Yeh through those two as well. Yeah, so impact is pretty straightforward. Do really great at your job, be at the top of leaderboard, but get it done and do it right, obviously being the key there. And then make sure you're finding ways to show those things. So you if we, if we look at the luck component of the model, you can make your own luck by increasing your visibility. So on the girl's side, I'm trying to get better, I'm trying to learn a bunch of skills and I'm being intentional about that. But then I'm also trying to build the skills I need for the next job that I think I want. And so that's like reading the leadership books and finding opportunities to do some buddy mentorship or take on a project. You know, hey, we want to rework these cadences. Then then you're going to use that opportunity to put your hand up and be like, oh, like, I can write a sequence, like let me take a crack at it. So, because you're now building the skill you need to be a good good sales manager, and I'm also trying to demonstrate and and show the impact I can build as a sales manager. So I'm making the impact, I'm being somebody that can be relied upon and I'm trying to show that I can do the next thing. And then the last sort of third part of this framework is is luck an opportunity? So you can make your own luck by being in the right places at the right time. So that could be being in a quickly scaling startup. That's the typical one. Everybody thinks if they're early in a start up, they'll be the VP of sales in like six months, just by very might be, but you'll probably get fired in nine yeah, yeah, exactly. So is it a high growth environment? Is An environment that has a really well defined crew development track? Do they promote from within? Do you have a leader, like are you going there to learn from a specific leader that is super duper critical, like more than the company, you want to know who you're working for and I optimized for that in my shop. If I career heavily, you know, it is important for me to find like values alignment and somebody that I felt like I could really get a lot from and learn a lot from. And so if you think about like what are the things, where the places that Opportunity will present itself? That's how you can control those variables. And then it's visibility, its sponsorship. So how am I building the right relationships internally and and offering to help with the people that are that? I need to be seen as a high potential candidate for the next thing. And then a lot. And then the other piece of it is patients. Like you know, we're not patient as people as a sales professions, so that's a harder one. But understanding that, you know, there's these ebbs and flows. You talked about sort of sprint and rest. The something else I say a lot is like things will ebb and flow and you'll get looked over or somebody will else will get chosen for a role and it feels like you know, there's no possibility the next thing. And if you're in and and high growth environment or environment that changes, then you'd be surprised how quickly things turn. And having a bit of patients to stick things out and focus on the previous stuff. So it's like, okay, I'm not getting to do the job I really want to do. I want to manage a sales seem. I want to manage a sales team and you don't get that opportunity, will instead of pouting about it and going and looking somewhere else. So it's like, okay, then, now I've got another six or nine months to just like go crazy on learning. Now, not learning on the job, because I'm not in that role, but what can I do to prepare myself and and maybe this is my like rest time. I can... this job in my sleep. I've been a BDR for a year now. Like the job's automatic. Okay, that's like use your rest time because, you know, when you're a new AE, you're sprinting, so like conserve your energy, get you know, like get yourself healthy, do all those things. Learn, learn and learn, and then when the next day you roll opens up, you're ready to go. You're rested and ready to rock. I love that. I love that. Couldn't agree more with the leader that you work for. It's everything. I feel like that then becomes more and more true even as my career goes. I look back at at moments in it which was in the company. It wasn't the opportunity, wasn't the industry, it was always the leader that I was working under. What what would help get to that kind of next next day, so so important. You also said something that should be written on on everyone's wall. Should be like a poster to make your own luck by creating more visibility for yourself. But that's it, right, like that's I often say. And there's ways you can do this internally. There's ways you can do this externally. You know, you can create media assets, whether it's like a podcast or a newsletter or Linkedin or speaking at place. Is it's kind of like when you do that and you make yourself visible, you're creating these beacons for like interesting problems and interesting people to find you that you can can solve and build with. And you can do a similar thing internally at your organizations as well. So I really like like that one thing to build on that, because it's this something I hear a lot. It's like, Oh, like, I just don't like playing politics. I hate politics. I don't think anybody likes politics unless you're bit of a sociopath. So so it's easy to complain about. It's like, Oh, like, I don't want to just like do this, to kiss up to the to the boss or whatever. It's like yeah, totally, like it's a weird thing to do and it's it feels weird to just like post a bunch of stuff on on Linkedin so that people see you and you can complain about that and say it's like silly, but this is the way the world is and you, as a pragmatist, you either just like do it and leverage the world for what it is and quit trying to hope that it's going to be something that it isn't, or you know, you're going to let yourself get get a little less lucky. Hey, man, couldn't agree more. It's particularly in sales. Again, there's so many different offshoot episodes. Will have to have you back that. There's another. Okay, there's another interesting thing that pop hand. There's like, particularly sales, there's kind of this culture of just hit your member, you just hit your number, all your problems go away. But like now you really if you want an extraordinary career, that's the ordinary side, like you said, that's the ordinary effort of hitting your number. You've got to find ways to make yourself physical, contribute in other ways, have impact beyond that. Man, this like make it make it dead simple for me like, Oh, I know Scott can manage team because everybody already comes to Scott to answer their questions and Scott's the one sharing interesting new approaches to this deal, or Scott's doing this. If you just look, if you just show yourself to be somebody that can clearly do the next thing, then things get a lot easier for you, and it in again, like this is the other really important thing about being a pragmatist is that's all probabilities and why a third of this sort of model is like luck will in. Even if you do all the right things, there's still only a percentage probability that the right outcome, and so like. If you read thinking and bets by any Doke, obviously this is like a well documented line of thinking. You're still it's still might not go the right way. There's a chance, but if you just keep doing the right things, like stick to the process, like it's process over results. Don't play the results. Did you do the right things?...

Was I learning? Was I doing? was I putting up the right metrics? Was I contributing outside of it? Okay, like I got passed over because you know, it's the boss is cousin and that's all unfair. There's going to be a lot of those breaks in life. But if you but never let it dissuade you from continuing to do the right things, because you see this, and more so in June, more junior folks, but they don't get the promotion. And maybe there was some like coaching feedback there that was legit, or maybe it was just like wrong timing, and then they creator and you know, it's cutting off your nosees bite your face instead. It's just like, was I executing my process? was I doing the right things? Yes, okay, that's that's all I can control and I'm just going to keep doing this and I know that this will pay off over the long term. Great, great advice and I know you're a busy guy. I've kept you a couple minutes over, but I do want to leave this question because everyone's super busy. They're probably multitasking as that the listeners are listening to this. Maybe they're they're dialing as they've got this promotivation, they're working out, you know, dealing with kids, whatever it is. If people forget everything that we just talked about, because there was a lot of a lot coming at you there. There's a lot of gold everything, but three things. What would you want those three things to be? Growth is the only thing that matters. Number One. Call One, be be intentional about what you're what you're trying to grow in like own that own your own development. Be Intentional about what you're getting better at and put in the work too, is extraordinary. Career results do not come with ordinary effort and ordinary work ethic. And then, threes, trying to make your own luck. So find ways to stack the deck in your favor, but always know that it's still a game of probabilities. Even if you do all the right things, maybe you tip yourself tip things in your favor. Seventy thirty, which means three out of ten times this happens. It's not going the way that you want to. But never get dissuaded from your process. Learn, put up numbers, try to be visible in the right ways and be in the right types of companies with the right leaders. Things will turn out really well on the long run. I love it, Ma'am well, Kyle, thank you so much for for hanging out with me, for hanging out with the listeners. Truly one of one of my favorite conversations I've had in a while, so thank you for I can see why you'd had such an incredible career. Man. I'm excited to see you continue to to crush it at shopify and beyond. And for all those listeners, thank you so much for hanging out with us. I know you probably learned a ton. I know I did. I've got a page full of notes. That's how I know it's a good one and we'll see you next episode, next loot. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. To help this get in front of more eyes and ears, please leave us a shining five star review. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes. Resources in the book on sales engagement. To get the most out of your sales engagement strategy. Make sure to check out outreach. That ioh, the leading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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