The Sales Engagement Podcast
The Sales Engagement Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

3 Ways to Start Visual Prospecting to Improve Response Rates w/ Dogpatch Advisors (Part 1)


Personalization is all the rage these days. Personalize your messages and you’ll get higher open rates. But there are two guys preaching that relevance may be even more important to consider in your outbound ops.

Ben Salzman and Kyle Williams run Dogpatch Advisors where they help companies increase revenue through outbound ops and data-driven sales techniques.

Another thing they teach their clients to do is visual prospecting. There is just too much information and context trying to be crammed into one email these days, often times causing you to lose the prospect. While forgetting that an image is worth 1,000 words.

Visual prospecting is dynamically tailored imagery that goes to a specific prospect; essentially putting their world into the message. But how do you do that for hundreds of prospects?

Welcome to the sales engagement podcast. This podcast is brought to you by outreach dot ioh, the leading sales engagement platform helping companies, sellers and customer success engaged with buyers and customers in the modern sales era. Check out sales engagementcom for new episodes, resources and the book on sales engagement coming soon. Now let's get into today's episode. Max Outroler, here a vpm marketing at outreach CEO at sales hacker, do the dual role of thing, but mere with Ben Salesman and Kyle Williams from dog patch today on this episode of the Sales Engagement podcast and we're talking about outbound option data driven sales and this is a pretty Harry subject. We got a lot of stuff to talk about, so it's going to be a pretty media episode. It's really excited. How you guys on? What do you tell us a little bit about what dog patches and kind of how you got started? First we're yeah, this has been really excited to be on. Max, thanks for having us. Dog Patch is an advisory and research firm focus on data driven playbooks, sales process and a lot of focus on outbound and we really try to take our experience as operators and do as good of a job as we can of helping the best companies in the world grow even faster. So sort of a combination of advisory work and products, and a lot of it is around sourcing and managing large volumes of data to drive higher relevance throughout the Sales Cycle. Cool. Well, really excited to have you, guys and get you talking about how we're going to dive into outbound ops here. To tell us a little bit about what outbound ops is. Sure. Yeah, so alpload OPS. Is this? What to think about? It is probably a function within your organization that sort of acts as a clearinghouse and a centralized function for sourcing, managing and normalizing large volumes of data related to outbound so that strs and people sort of in the individual contribut role can stand on the shoulders of that data work to...

...essentially drive higher relevance and higher value for prospects. And what we found is this explosion of raw data that exists now, and it has been happening for the last sort of five to seven years, has made it some most companies aren't properly set up to consume and take advantage of this explosion of data. So a lot of our work is helping companies to think through this new model and help implement a function that allows your team to really take advantage of this data in new ways. Kyle, of know, what would you have to add to that? Yeah, so that's the core of the outbound ops model. A lot of it being around. There's this shift that's happened in the market on a lot of people are talking about we have to be personalized with to be human. That's certainly important to be human, but it's often what we really mean is being relevant, and relevance can come from the intersection of multiple points of data with your company's domain next fritise and be an insight for a specific person or company, and that relevance far outweighs just faking that you're a human involved in the creation of a message. So how do you figure out how to be relevant? Yeah, it's a great question. So a lot of times what we're doing is leveraging our experience as operators. Right. So Kyl and I both spend a lot of time in front of customers at large companies that startups, managing teams whore in front of customers and you know, I think we feel like we are sort of experts in the sales function, and so what we're trying to do with a lot of our clients is how do we figure out what the best as or what your CEO would do to prepare for a first call and pull that data information forward in the sale cycle to be used in outbounds? A lot of times we're digging in really deep. Product teams, executive teams and the best as, two sort of crews, figure out one of those Aha moments that are being created for prospects and where are the highest points of leverage throughout the sale cycle, and so how do we capture the essence of that and potentially figure out ways to go... source or, you know, sort of collect very, very specific data points for your company that maybe you wouldn't be able to buy from anyone else? That's cool. Yeah, I mean one of the things we do is we actually, you know, we're series D company raise a hundred and twenty five million dollars in contint that's the number. We still have a session on Monday where our CEO will sit down with our a's and prospect with them and so they can see kind of what our CEO does, what his best practice are, how he'd go about doing it. Also leverages him in ways that they couldn't possibly, you know, reach out to anybody. So I like to you know, call it like the power horse shoe, or if you try to sell somebody at a decisionmaker level. But, like you know, in a decent sized company it's not going to be the CEO. If you're just trying to go straight to them, you're not going to have that much success. is going to be much harder than if if I can escalate it to my CEO, my CEO then talks to somebody on their board or their CEO and their CEO kicks it down and makes it a priority. Now a sudden, when they can have a conversation, it'll be a lot easier because the CEO of that company just made it a priority for them. So like your point of how would the CEO do this and then extrapolating that out and seeing how you can, you know, scale that across the rest of your team. So let's talk about some of these outbound ops a little bit more. You Talk About Visual Prospect and we sat down a dream force, we talked about your visual prospect and I love some of the ideas you guys had. Tell us a little bit about that and how people can go about doing that at their own companies. So if you can dynamically change and image, and so that's what we mean when we say visual prospecting is dynamically tailored imagery that goes to a specific prospect. So row by row, everyone's seeing something different and whether that's hey, it took a look at your infrastructure, here's how that map could look for you specifically in this new world, or Hey, I looked at your site, here's something that I notice. Here's what the new world looks like, whatever that is. It's showing them and pulling them forward into here's your world when you look at us. And sometimes that...

...could be the classic here's something that's broken and it could be fixed. It could just be the familiarity play, like I'm going to put your logo in this flow. But the important part of it is those key elements aren't just familiarity. It's not just putting their logo on a t shirt and saying hey, look, I'm relevant to you. It's actually making the context specific to them, and there's an important differentiation between what sort of sales prospect your outbound might look like verse marketing. So we sort of think of sales as human to human email rights was not from a brand. There's this sort of html. It's like a Marquetto hubsbot email. It's how do you do what the best a's are doing by hand? But at scale, do they always have to be custom visuals? So I mean obviously a photo is a lot easier for someone to absorb quicker, especially if you can format it and it comes across in mobile properly. So what are some of the best practices here? You know, for people at home, I want to do this themselves. You can start with static, static meaning everyone seeing the same image. What we are seeing in general as a trend is there as this upward pressure on the need for relevance and outbound in general, because prospects are getting so much more and there's this expectation of bringing me the context, not just information. So we do think that personalized or custom relevance increasing is an important component. But some of the key principles that we've learned over time is like you can't overproduce it. If it looks like something that a designer spent ten hours on and it's just for them. It breaks the whole narrative of we looked at your business, we came up with this, and people just have this distrust of something that's to produced. We always say the bar is you want either a time strap designer level or an enterprising ae that had thirty minutes in power point or in slides. That's sort of the quality bar we're looking for. You want components of familiarity, so whether it's their logo, something like a picture of their website, something that they are going to be familiar with.

That's what buys you that fifteen to thirty seconds for them to actually inspect the message that you're putting into it. And then the message needs to be simple right. You can't have a fourteen step workflow that you're trying to describe to them. It needs to be no more than two to four different elements that lead up to a single point you're trying to make. And I'll just later on that a lot of it is just the sort of idea of reciprocity right. Will have prospects respond to us or respond to our customers saying wow, this is really thoughtful. I can't believe you put in the time to create this. Right. So you know we did put in the done to create it, but what we did was take two steps back and think about how do we templatize this or create the infrastructure to produce this across ten hundred ofzero companies at once? And often they don't actually care if you've done it just for them or if you've done it for everyone, as long as it's relevant. If one as they're learning something new and as a net new insight, they're sort of saying to themselves, I don't actually know if human was involved in the creation of this, but it's helpful enough to me where they'll literally thank you in the response, and that is very different than what we see for a lot of the sort of will call baseline level out on that we see today. I'll just lay onto that. We get this question a lot of okay, you're putting in their logo or showing someone in their company involved in this, and is that something where people feel tricked? You know that, hey, we crafted this and then it maybe was automated, and I was told the story of when my wife and I were dating, I had an android phone and I wrote a little script for my phone that would take a series of romantic quotes that I had hand curated and then randomly throughout the day, would text them to her. A lot of people say that's that's disgusting that you would do that, right, that you'd have this Bot that would send out romantic quotes. It's tricking. But I did tell her before I turned it on. I said, Hey, wrote this thing, and she loved it. Right, because that was you put in this effort and it was relevant. And that applies a lot in this new world where relevance increasingly is more important than just proving that a human was involved in the creation of this message. Right, like a lot of the messages, you might as well just put a capture code in there that says a human created this...

...and that's all we're proving. Right, hey, maxis all. You went to Florida state, go syminals, right, or something like saw. You went to school, go mascot. That's not relevant. We're just trying to create this tribal relevance of I'm connecting to you in some low level way, and the more you can just get true relevance. It doesn't matter whether you say, Hey, we're experts in this space. We analyzed all the top companies in your industry and we found X, Y and Z from the system and here's what it showed for you specifically. Over time, people won't care about that. Their care that it's relevant for them. I love that approach. I love the images in general. I think that it gets the point across so much fast so you know they say when you're writing an email, make it like one thumb flick length on your phone, because people are reading it on their phone. Right. So if you have a picture, people can absorb that so much faster than reading line by line as that. A woman in sales panel a few weeks ago and one of the ladies raised her hand. She's an entrepreneur and she started a business going into tech companies and giving talks on how to make sure that you know you're building a good culture your company and you know people aren't really falling into the until whole meet to thing. So she's like, how do I get customers and I said we'll go solicit VC's and go find a tech crunch article of founder Miss Stepping at their company and then like losing his job in this whole blow up or ever take a screen shot of that tech crunch article and then just send it to the VC's and say, Hey, you should introduce me to your portfolio companies because you don't want this happening to one of them. Hundred percent, and that emotional reaction to that like that, Oh shit, no, I don't want that happening to them. Should be enough to get them to say okay, you know, you got my attention all you talk to my portfolio. So much more powerful than bullet points. That's a sixty seven percent of companies in this category experience this issue and Data Da, Dadadaj just here it is. You don't want to be on tech runch and jumping ahead a little bit, you know, and you know I want to talk about prosonalization verse relevance.

We talked about making things relevant, but how do you figure out what's relevant versus just personalizing something? And you have a matrix for this, or is there a framework that you've built that you go off of? Yeah, I'd say one of the first places we start is that. What would you see Eo do? Test Right, so, if many superactive on Linkedin, I'm sure he gets all the time people messaging him saying hey, we're in the market for sales engagement. Can you show us so many? I'm sure internally is forwarding those to someone on the sales team. When you are the A and you get the email from manny saying take this call, that's going to be the most prepared first call you've ever done. Right. And so what we would do is we would look at how does that AE PREP for that call? What is the date of they're looking at? What are those internal decision trees that they're running to say? All right, I'm narrowing down. I think this company, you know, they went from ten sales reps to fifty and they didn't have a CS or last year and now they do. I'm sure there's a lot of things they're looking at the tell them the way they're going to take that call, but it's all in their heads. So we would sit and say where are those calories being spent on a first call to drive relevance in the first five questions that get the conversation going, and how can we find ways to either directly do that or find proxies for that experience we can pull forward. So a specific example, we work with a company that does. At the time they were focused on language translation workflow. Right. So your visa, you've got an APP, you've got a website, you've got translators, you've got all these different products and places where those text strings need to go, and that workflow turns out to be really challenging. And what they were doing is, at the time they're really small. So the CEO is actually writing all the opening hooks. So she's going to everyone's linkedin and going Hey, I noticed you've been at visa for five years on working on product and then some statement. Right, and that's how most people do it right. That's how you get those that meet human level personalization. So we sat on their sales calls and their best ae was doing...

...something totally different. So she would start the call and most of the time it went something like hey, Max, I noticed that outreach is getting a ton of traffic from will say Brazil, but when I go to your site it's only in English and French, like, why aren't you doing Portuguese? It seems like you're missing out on this whole market. And that every time it opened up the conversations. We said okay, what are you doing? And so she was just going to similar web seeing where they're getting traffic. Often she look at the APP store and see what languages was the APP actually in, because it lists those out, and we said Hey, that's that's a data problem, right. So we took the top thousand apps categorized all the languages so we'd scrape out which languages did their APP support, and then we look at similar web and say which countries are they getting traffic from? Pick the primary language and you start to look at that math to say where are these opportunities? And that comes in a number of different flavors. It could be that specific example of you've got this meaningful traffic from this group where there's a top language that you're not supporting. It could be you have forty languages and that is just a multiplier on every time you make an update. Now you've got to work for the problem and that eventually became a formula and the net effect of that was they were getting fifty percent increase meeting rates, but the time to do that was like two hundred x less, right, because not your CEO going to linked in to look at how long someone's been in their role. It's actually something hyper relevant. So often that's the first place we look is say, where our calories for relevance spent today, whether it's late in the sales cycle, that first call, where people spending it? And then how do we take those internal decision trees and convert those into relevance that that we can pull forward into outbound and a lot of this ends up being really hitting on what we would think of is the second order of facts, like what is this data mean? Right? So a lot of companies, their best SDR may be able to go out and source individual pieces of data to fit into emerge dagg of you know, I noticed x percentage of your traffic is coming from this country, but that you don't support. Why? Language? Totally possible. Well, you'll notice a lot of these...

...examples that we are offering here or ones that, if you're doing it one at a time, no problem. If you're doing it for Tenzero, a hundred thousand accounts, your companies probably not set up to source, normalize and process all of that data. So it's not necessarily filling out the merge tag with the raw data. Often there is sort of a few steps or a few hops between the raw data and what is the data means. So what Kllege is explained is you're missing on a commercial opportunity because there's a significant amount of traffic coming from x country and you don't support their language. That doesn't actually come out in the data. One by one. It's the relevance because of scale, not in spite of it. Is doing it for a thousand or tenzero companies at once helps you understand. Okay, how does this data benchmark against the rest of the folks in the market and what does this actually mean for the virus? Means you're losing a revenue. It doesn't mean you're getting a lot of traffic from a country. That's not the inside. The inside is pulling together multiple pieces of data to create something net new. How do you peel the layers of the onion back? You know this and you've built this muscle from experience maybe, but how do you do that? You know, how do you tell the team to do that, or how do you tell people out there listening? You know, to really figure out the underlying reason that the person should be thinking about their pain point? You say when they they see that, you know, the traffic coming from Brazil, that it's not about the traffic it's about their missing out on revenue. How do you get how do you get that to that second layer? You look, it's not easy company to company. Right like a lot of what dog pats tries to do is take our expertise and sales and sort of apply that in a domain specific way for each company. So we're a lot of times digging in with the executive team, the marketing leadership case studies and a lot of time is auditing all the copy to actually say, okay, what's the best email we can find when your best eat or CEO or someone writes it one at a time and then we'll go through this process that we call the sort of the manual to scale loop. So you write a message for a single individual at a single company and see how does that break when you're sending it to a different individual at the same company, and then how does it...

...break further when you're sending it to a different persona at a different company? So often the raw ingredients are there, but helping it to sort of scale and get to the throughput that leads to real results that's a hard part. So how do you sort of take with the best ease of the best you know the CEO or someone who's really effective and customer messaging and back that out, modularize the template and help sort of build out what we would think of as a canonical place for all these lookup tables to say, if all these things are true, here's what ends up, you know, in plain English, in this snippet. All right. Well, that's all the time we have for today. There's so much to talk about with dog patch, so if to have them back on part two coming soon. Thanks for joining us. This was another episode of the sales engagement podcast. Join US at sales engagementcom for new episodes, resources and the book on sales engagement coming soon. To get the most out of your sales engagement strategy, make sure to check out outreach die Oh, the leading sales engagement platform. See you on the next episode.

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